Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:53 pm**

78 confirmed dead so far. American and British tourists targeted. Still hostages taken inside. 9 terrorists reportedly arrested.

It's not known yet whether they are Islamic or HIndu extremists - most are assuming the former. John has been following the escalation of conflict in the region and has correctly predicted this kind of escalation. Indeed, it makes sense from a generational perspective.

Discuss.

Posted: **Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:55 pm**

There were attacks across the length and breadth of Mumbai (a city
that used to be known as Bombay).

The terrorists were searching for people with US or British
passports, and took several of these people as hostage. News reports
indicate that there are 15 hostages, but it's unclear where they're
being held.

The Taj Mahal Palace Hotel in Mumbai was the major site of the
attacks, but not the only site. There was an attack at the Oberei
Hotel, where there are 4-5 hostages on the 19th floor, and attacks at
the Camo Hospital, for women and children, the Metro Cinema, the CST
Railway Station, Cafe Leopold, and the US Consulate.

A little known group, the Deccan Mujahadeen, possibly named after the
Deccan Plateau in southern India, is claiming responsibility.
But the motives are not yet known.

Watch out for confusing statements by news reporters. One reporter
referred to "Indian violence" that recently began, but apparently
confused Hindu Indian violence with Muslim Indian violence.

** 'Hindutva' terrorist violence against Muslims shocks Indians
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 06#e081106

Flash! I just heard that 7 out of 9 suspects are fishermen.

The main thing, though, is that this was a VERY sophisticated, VERY
well coordinated attack, costing a lot of money and time.

This is an ongoing situation. There's still a fire, and fresh
gunfire can be heard.

More to come.

John

Posted: **Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:40 pm**

Its very worrying to hear the Indian Prime Minister Singh hinting strongly of neighbours being involved, at a time of world financial crisis. These insinuations are troubling --sparks make fire. Let us be reminded that both are nuclear countries.

Posted: **Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:52 am**

-- War on Mumbai

The commando operations are still ongoing on Mumbai. There's just
been news that the Nariman House operation has ended, with 5 hostages
and 2 terrorists killed.

The big remaining operation is still the Taj Hotel. It's nighttime
now, and the electricity is off, so the police have to go from room
to room in the dark, and the Taj Hotel is enormous (450 rooms). There
continues to be fresh gunfire coming from the hotel, but I believe the
fires have been extinguished Anyway, it's going to be a very long
night in Mumbai.

Meanwhile, tensions have been great between India and Pakistan.
Indian PM Singh and other Indian officials have said that the attacks
"originated" in another country, referring to Pakistan. However,
there has been no accusation that I've heard that Pakistani
government officials were involved. There have been such accusations
in the past, especially after the 2006 Mumbai subway bombings.

Quite honestly, I'm not sure why India would blame the Pakistani
government for these attacks, even if the terrorists are Pakistanis
from Lashkar-e-Taibi, with links to the Taliban. After all, Pakistan
itself is in the grip of the same terrorists, and if anything, India
and Pakistan should be making common cause against the terrorists.

This is particularly true now that the government is in the hands of
President Asif ali Zardari and the Shia-based Pakistan's People's
Party (PPP). This is a change from when Pervez Musharraf was President
- he is a Sunni Muslim. In fact, Zardari's government is sending the
head of the ISI (Pakistan's intelligence service) to India to share
intelligence. It's worth remembering that Hindus and Shia Muslims
are historically aligned against Sunni Muslims (and the Taliban).

The disagreement between India and Pakistan has to do with the
question of "hot pursuit": The Indians believe that they know where
the Lashkar-e-Taibi camps are located, and they'd like the right to
pursue the terrorists back to these camps on Pakistani soil, possibly
as a joint operation with Pakistani forces.

The Pakistanis claim that the Indians are jumping to conclusions, and
they are unwilling to allow any "hot pursuit" operations by
outsiders. Of course, this is already a contentious issue between
the Pakistanis and the American forces in Afghanistan, who would like
to be allowed "hot pursuit" into the tribal areas (FATA).

John

Posted: **Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:39 pm**

If the group claiming responsibility is Deccan Mujahadeen...why do we have reason to believe otherwise (as in the media's attempts to link the group back to Pakistan)?

Don't terrorist groups want attention? Why do they embark on these attacks if not to gain media and awareness to their group/cause?

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:57 pm**

jecht8 wrote: > If the group claiming responsibility is Deccan Mujahadeen...why do
> we have reason to believe otherwise (as in the media's attempts to
> link the group back to Pakistan)?

I don't know if you mean to say this, but you seem to be saying that
just because they've slaughtered hundreds of innocent people, we
shouldn't assume that they're also liars. In other words, even
though they're genocidal monsters, they're HONEST genocidal monsters.

At any rate, nobody in either India or Pakistan is now claiming that
the perpetrators were not from Pakistan, where they trained in camps
near Karachi.

jecht8 wrote: > Don't terrorist groups want attention? Why do they embark on these
> attacks if not to gain media and awareness to their group/cause?

Al-Qaeda linked terrorist groups, including Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT)
embark on these attacks because their goal is to provoke a war -- a
war between Pakistan and India, a war between Muslims and infidels.
With billions of Muslims in the world, they believe that war is the
only way to create Muslim nations.

Their model is the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, where a major war
defeated the existing US-backed Iranian government, and installed
hardline Muslim fundamentalists. They believe that they can repeat
that "success" in India, Pakistan, and other nations.

Sincerely,

John

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:03 pm**

Horror is turning to rage, as Mumbaikers assess the 3-day, 60 hour
nightmare they endured. They're proud of their city -- "Mumbai still
stands tall" after the ordeal. And they're proud of their fallen
police heroes -- "They died so that Mumbai might live."

Their fury is directed first at their own leadership. They say that
the police bungled the effort, allowing it to go on for too long.
They blame their intelligence services for allowing it to happen in
the first place -- the CIA had warned them in September of a planned
Lashkar-e-Taiba sea-borne attack on Mumbai, and other sources had
confirmed that intelligence.

But mostly, fury is growing towards Pakistan. The Pakistan
government is not being blamed for perpetrating the attack, but they
are being blamed for "coddling" LeT, doing nothing to arrest its
leaders and close down its training camps.

If it turns out that Pakistan's ISI (intelligence services) had
knowledge of a planned attack, and if Pakistan could have taken
action to stop the attack, then there could be a major crisis between
India and Pakistan. One possible scenario is that the Indians could
unilaterally attack LeT camps on Pakistani soil, provoking a response
from Pakistan's army.

The next step will be that India will provide Pakistan with specific
evidence of the names and locations of LeT leaders and camps, and
they will be asked to conduct raids and arrests, and turn the
perpetrators over to India. Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari has
promised to cooperate fully with India in arresting the perpetrators,
but how far this will go when words turn to action remains to be
seen.

John

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:57 pm**

This is a very significant interview by Pakistan President Asif Ali
Zardari. The interview was conducted by Indian TV channel IBN, whose
commentators have been very aggressive in criticizing both the Indian
and Pakistani governments.

> New Delhi: Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari has said that his
> heart bleeds for the people of India in the wake of the Mumbai
> Terror attacks. He said that Pakistan will cooperate fully with
> all investigations and will punish anyone found guilty in
> Pakistan.

> CNN-IBN’S Karan Thapar spoke to the Pakistani President.

> Karan Thapar: President Zardari, how do you respond to the
> terrorist strike in Mumbai which has killed perhaps as many as 200
> people and left several 100 injured?

> Asif Ali Zardari: I am appalled, I am hurt, I am bleeding. Your
> wound brings attention to my wound, it is also very recent. I
> stand with the people of India. I stand with the leadership of
> India. I am sorry that you are going through this. I can see this
> on the TV. Today's infotech brings all the pain to us in our
> bedrooms, in our homes.

> Karan Thapar: Yesterday the Indian PM spoke with you, spoke with
> your PM, and he indicated the sort of evidence India has which
> suggests some sort of connection to Pakistan. Can you assure the
> Indian people that Pakistan will do everything it can to
> investigate and enquire into these connections so that we get to
> the bottom of this matter?

> Asif Ali Zardari: As the President of Pakistan, let me assure you
> that if any evidence points towards any individual or group in my
> part of the country, I will take the strictest of action in the
> light of the evidence and in front of the world.

> Karan Thapar: So you are saying that you will co-operate with any
> investigation or enquiry whatsoever without any hesitation?

> Asif Ali Zardari: Without any hesitation whatsoever, no matter
> where it may lead.

> Karan Thapar: On Friday, it was announced in Islamabad that the
> Director General (DG) of the ISI will be coming to India. We
> believe overnight that decision may have been reversed, and you
> may have changed your mind, what is the position?

> Asif Ali ZardariNo Karan, there was a miscommunique, we had
> announced that a Director would come from the ISI, because it's
> too early for the DGs to meet at the moment. Let the evidence come
> to light, let the investigation take its course, then perhaps the
> DGs could meet.

> Karan Thapar:So you are saying at the moment a Director of the
> ISI will come - is that right?

> Asif Ali Zardari: Yes, that is what I was requested by Manmohan
> Singh and that was what was agreed between us.

> Karan Thapar: But you also said a moment ago that a DG could come
> later on, you don't rule out that possibility?

> Asif Ali Zardari: I do not rule out the possibility of
> cooperation between the highest echelons of the intelligence
> agencies.

> Karan Thapar: Which includes the DG if need be?

> Asif Ali Zardari: Which would include the DGs.

> Karan Thapar:There are many things that you have said that are
> very reassuring to the Indian people . There were things that you
> said on Saturday at the HT summit which got a lot of applause and
> praise in India, but people raise one question, they say Asif Ali
> Zardari has the right intentions, he says the right things, can he
> and will he deliver on his assurances and promises? How do you
> answer that concern?

> Asif Ali Zardari: Sir I'll deliver because I stand by my people. I
> am delivering for Pakistan, I am delivering for the existence of
> Pakistan. I have a personal threat, I have a threat from the same
> forces. They may not be the same individuals but they are
> definitely the same forces and the same mindset, so I am not
> standing to appease any other people. I am trying to save my own
> nation. My country and the future of my children, so therefore I
> am as committed as can be.
> http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-pak-th ... 374-2.html

Remember that Zardari lost his own wife (Benazir Bhutto) to al-Qaeda
linked terrorists, so he has every reason to feel solidarity with the
Indians. However, most of Pakistan (including the Taliban) are Sunni
Muslims, and so not everyone will be as willing to cooperate as
Zardari is.

John

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:13 pm**

(http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... sid=1&pn=3)

Posted: **Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:50 pm**

Here's an al-Jazeera video of the Mumbai battles:

John

Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

Mumbai Shootings

Mumbai Shootings

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Re: Mumbai Shootings

In Mumbai, horror is turning to rage

Interview with Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari

Frogmen at the Gate

Re: Mumbai Shootings