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Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:05 pm
by John
And even in a small society, you'll have disagreements over who owns
some land, who gets some woman, who inherits what from the death of a
parent, so it won't be long before you need a police force. And
before long, people are bribing the policemen, with money or sex, and
so you quickly have an entitled class that makes the rules, but
doesn't do any planting.

Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:15 pm
by gerald
John wrote:And even in a small society, you'll have disagreements over who owns
some land, who gets some woman, who inherits what from the death of a
parent, so it won't be long before you need a police force. And
before long, people are bribing the policemen, with money or sex, and
so you quickly have an entitled class that makes the rules, but
doesn't do any planting.
Ok, same old same old, just a matter of degree of scale, every so often there is a cleansing, ( better or worse ) and then a new batch, and the cycle repeats.

Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:38 pm
by NoOneImportant
John wrote:
Actually, I don't think it's ever going to work in its current form.
It would have to be thrown out and be rewritten from scratch.
John, I don't disagree, my point is that these are authoritian thugs - in the traditional form. First they will attempt to mask/deceive the change, then when caught, it'll be painted in the form of security improvements, performance improvements, efficiency improvements... anything but what it is - a rewrite. When is a large enough "change" considered to be a re-write? My point is that the site is just symptomatic of a much larger problem. When the statistics accumulated by, and distributed by the government cannot be relied upon as being undistorted how do we differ in any material fashion from the old Soviet Union - whose claims, in the end, were simply laughable? There is no honesty, no transparency, no reliability from these people - distortion, and lies are so prevalent they have to be assumed and presumed, the MSM has abandoned any pretense of it's traditional role as the gatekeeper of honesty - regardless of where that may lead.

To explain: one of the great symptoms of out of control inflation - as you know there are many - is that it masks everything - materials costs, labor costs, facilities replacement costs... , nothing can be accurately relied upon as everything is in a continuous state of flux. Inflation masks clarity, and without a clear picture of where you find yourself, informed decision are just not possible. Well we don't have that, - rampant inflation, although what may be assured is that is is much higher that the "official" statistic, as certain commodities are excluded because of "seasonal-varability" - what we have is a source whose only dependability is that he is calculatingly, deceptive, and undependable - It is impossible to have any accurate idea of where we are, as virtually everything sourced by him is calculated to deceive.

While politics has been traditionally marginal - regarding stretching the truth, with accountability being derived from the media - statistical evidence was what it was, within a known margin of error, and it was generally reliable. While the interpretation might be subject to distortion, the figures were generally not subject to intentional deception. We quite simply now have figures that are so skewed and bent emanating from the Bureau of Labor Statistics as to boarder on overt deception and fraud - nothing can be relied upon, except that they are unreliable, and distortions. Is the unemployment rate 7%, or is it 13+%, it can't be both, which is it? Are these unreliable figures flagrant dishonesty? And if so is it fraud? The question is not inconsequential, may government be trusted in any manner whatsoever? May it be trusted in any context? The problem may be fixed: indict them, try them, and if innocent acquit them, if not jail them for a very long time - the deceptions will cease. As things are now I see no material difference between them and Bernie Maddof? This is beyond shameful, an impartial - in so far as that's possible - court needs to examine what's happening and determine whether there is malice, and fraud. You just can't do whatever you think you can get away without accountability, and recourse, because we have a formerly free society. Statical lying - calculated to deceive - is not just politics as usual - it's fraud. It took five years, but every single one of the Enron executives did hard time - perhaps not enough - but they all did jail time. No one has done hard time for the multitude of punishable offenses of these people; not the least of which was the prospectively trillions of dollars lost over the last five years!!! No one is responsible for anything with these people. Is it stupidity, malice, or fraud; at any given moment can anyone tell? All that may be absolutely assured of is that anything that Obama says may be relied upon to be a deception - or calculated to deceive.


Additionally, John wrote:
Actually, I don't think anything was different in agrarian societies.
You had the serfs, and you had the landlords. People are people at
any time and place in history. As in the case of Tulipomania, bubbles
can occur in any society at any time, because it's always possible to
find a way to securitize debt.


John, while I don't presume to speak of gerald, I perceive his comments to pertain to Continental North America, after 1620, the founding of the Plymouth Bay Colony. What we see develop over the next 140 years was something truly unique in human accounts; that something was formalized in the American Declaration of Independence, and the US Constitution. The socialist experiment, as noted in gerald's comments, was the initial process for the growing of food in the Plymouth colony - to their detriment, and almost extinction. Only after the futility of their socialist "experiment" brought them face to face with starvation did the colonists adopt individually tended plots - changing eventually to individually owned plots. Only after that change did William Bradford note in his history of the Plymouth Colony that the company never again wanted for food.

John, again we don't differ regarding man's propensity to follow-the-hurd, a propensity that gave rise the Tulipomania bubble, among others over time , a bubble, as you accurately noted was caused, in large measure, by "easy" credit. Where we differ, and I find myself in sync with gerald is regarding what happens after the "crash", or burst of the "bubble." Capitalism permits you to make any legal decision that you may choose so long as your choices sustain your capital - as it is that capital that permits you to make any choices at all. Fritter away your capital on foolish decisions, and with it goes your ability to continue to choose as you no longer have capital to make choices with - to a great measure it is this fact that is responsible for the great success of early, and middle aged America, as the "cleansing" process was without moderation, and was quite merciless; in the main it favored prudence and merit.

Two absolutely unique principals emerged from the colonial American experience: 1.) the belief in inviolability of private property - afforded the protection of and defense under the rule of law. Gone was the divine right of kings to seize virtually anything in existence - oft times without any immediate compensation - as expedience would dictate. And, 2.) an absolute belief in individual liberty - but differently, a liberty devolved from a Divine author, and charged by Him to afford protection of that liberty under the rule of law. Both of those principals worked pretty much as designed - although not completely, the Civil War was a notable exception - for the first 127 years - till 1912 - years of the nations history. Make good choices, and the law protected what you accumulated, make bad choices, and the Law disbursed your residual assets to pay your creditors, while affording you the protection of your person - essentially cleaning you from the system at a level other than sustenance, as the result of your bad choices. Max Webber's; The Protestant Ethic, and Spirit of Capitalism is probably the best most concise description I have ever consumed - http://www.free-ebooks.net/ebook/The-pr ... capitalism

Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:18 pm
by gerald
to NoOneImportant
You have interpreted my thoughts correctly, except you were much more erudite then I in my attempted explanation.

One of the things that I have tried to push, in some of my posts -- Is calling a spade a spade. I ran a business for over 30 years regarding people and things ( rental apartments ) to run it properly, you have to know what "is" regarding people, things, government regulations, and finance. Today our society is like a maze of mirrors on shifting sands. How can one make intelligent decisions in such an environment? Interesting times.

Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:43 pm
by NoOneImportant
Agreed gerald.

Let a court sort them out - this isn't politics as usual - if innocent acquit them, if culpable imprison them for a very long time. It is the only hope of avoiding the corrupting rot that has become all other democratic forms of government. You are just not free to defraud, cheat, and administratively steal whatever you may get away with - then lie about having done it.

Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:56 pm
by NoOneImportant
John, having just reread all the posts, I think the only issue, and I don't think it's inconsequential is: is what is happening inexorably the undeniable march of generationalism, or is what we are seeing simply criminal? And if criminal, does it simply delay the inevitability of the generational cycle? Can the cycle's length be affected by a decided determination to avoid, what Washington called, the descent into factionalism?

Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:19 pm
by John
NoOneImportant wrote: > John, while I don't presume to speak of gerald, I perceive his
> comments to pertain to Continental North America, after 1620, the
> founding of the Plymouth Bay Colony. What we see develop over the
> next 140 years was something truly unique in human accounts; that
> something was formalized in the American Declaration of
> Independence, and the US Constitution. The socialist experiment,
> as noted in gerald's comments, was the initial process for the
> growing of food in the Plymouth colony - to their detriment, and
> almost extinction. Only after the futility of their socialist
> "experiment" brought them face to face with starvation did the
> colonists adopt individually tended plots - changing eventually to
> individually owned plots. Only after that change did William
> Bradford note in his history of the Plymouth Colony that the
> company never again wanted for food.
From my book:

The Colonists versus the Indians -- 1675-78

The most devastating war in American history was the Civil War, but
the most devastating war in New England's history occurred about 100
years before independence between the colonists and the local Indian
tribes. This war cast a shadow that lasted until the American
Revolution, and had an enormous influence on events leading all the
way up to the Revolution.

The standard America-centric view of this war is as follows: The
colonists and the Indians got along pretty well until the colonists
started taking too much valuable farming and hunting land. There was
a devastating war in the years 1675-76, just one of many wars that
the colonists, and later the "white man," used to steal land from the
Indians.

That's an interesting political point of view, and it's true in a
sense, but it doesn't provide any real understanding unless we expand
the scope of our vision a little bit.

Image
  • New England in 1675. The Pilgrims had landed in 1620 at
    Plymouth Rock, in the midst of the Wampanoag tribe.
In the year 1600, throughout what is now the United States, there were
some 2 million Indians within 600 tribes speaking 500 languages. What
happened, starting at that time, was a "clash of civilizations"
between European culture of the colonists and the indigenous culture
of the Indians. These cultures were so different that haven't yet
merged even today, inasmuch as many Indian tribes still live
separately on reservations. It's ironic that the American "melting
pot" has merged so many cultures, but has not yet entirely merged the
preexisting Native American cultures.

Most history books treat "the Indians" as a monolithic group, as if
they spoke with a common voice and common intent, but that's far from
the truth. There were undoubtedly many brutal wars among the 600
tribes of the time. What would have happened if no colonists and no
other outsiders had come and intervened in the life of the Indians?
What would have happened? There's no way to know, of course, but
it's likely that one or two of the tribes would have become dominant,
wiping out all the other tribes in numerous wars. That's the nature
of human societies: As they grow larger and run into each other, they
go to war, and the dominant societies survive.

For the purposes of our story, we're going to focus on just three of
those Indian tribes: The Wampanoag tribe that occupied what is now
southeastern Massachusetts (where Plymouth Rock is) and the
Narragansett tribe that occupied what is now Rhode Island, and the
Mohawk tribe (part of the Iroquois) of upstate New York.

There is some historical evidence that a major war among these tribes
had occurred in the years preceding the colonists' arrival at Plymouth
Rock, probably in the 1590s. The Wampanoag and the Narragansett tribes
were particularly devastated and weakened by that conflict.

So, when the pilgrims arrived at Plymouth Rock in 1620, in the midst
of the Wampanoag tribe, they had little trouble developing a pleasant
cooperative relationship. The Wampanoag Indians were in an awakening
period, and they taught the colonists how to hunt and fish, and in
autumn of 1621, they all shared a Thanksgiving meal of turkey and
venison.

Most significant was the colonists' early "declaration of
independence." Before the colonists landed in 1620, they signed the
Mayflower Compact, where they agreed that they would be governed by
the will of the majority. This laid the framework for the view that
neither the king nor parliament had any say in colonial government.
And why would they need the King anyway? After all, they could
provide for themselves, and they were friendly with the Indians.

This friendliness extended to trade. Before long, there was a mutually
beneficial financial arrangement between the Indians and the
colonists. The colonists acted as intermediaries through whom the
Indians developed a thriving business selling furs and pelts to the
English and European markets, and they used the considerable money
they earned to purchase imported manufactured goods.

There were two particular Indian chiefs who are important to this
story: one is a father and the other is his son, who took over when
the father died in 1660.

The father's name is Massasoit, chief of the Wampanoag Indians, the
Indian tribe most familiar to the Massachusetts colonists.

We have no way of knowing Massasoit's history. He was born around
1580, and so he must have been alive during the devastating war with
the Narragansett. In fact, since he became Chief, he may well have
been a hero who fought in the war in his teen years. With his
personal memory of the devastating results of the last all-out war, he
would not want to go through another war again unless absolutely
necessary.

We have no way of knowing the details of what the Indian tribes had
fought over, but chances are it was over what most wars are fought
over -- land. Each tribe wanted the best hunting, fishing and
farmland for its own use. But Massasoit maintained friendly
relationships with the colonists because of the financial benefits,
and because he was a wise, elder leader who didn't want another big
war in his lifetime.

Several dramatic changes occurred in the 1660s, when Massasoit died.
"The relationship between English and Native American had grown
inordinately more complex over forty years," according to Schultz and
Tougias. "Many of the important personal ties forged among men like
Massasoit and Stephen Hopkins, Edward Winslow, and William Bradford
had vanished. The old guard was changing on both sides, and with it a
sense of history and mutual struggle that had helped to keep the
peace."

Massasoit was replaced as Chief by his oldest son, Wamsutta -- who
died under mysterious circumstances that were blamed on the
colonists. The younger brother, Metacomet, nicknamed King Philip by
the colonists, became Chief.

Things <i>really</i> began to turn sour in the 1660s for another
reason: Styles and fashions changed in England and in Europe.
Suddenly, furs and pelts went out of style, and the major source of
revenue for the Indians almost disappeared. This resulted in a
financial crisis for the Indians, and for the colonists as well, since
they were the intermediaries in sales to the Indians.

But that's not all. Roughly 60-70 years had passed since the end of
the last tribal war. The Mohawk War (1663-80) began, and created
pressure from the west. The colonists were establishing ever-larger
colonies in the east. In this pressure cooker atmosphere, the
Wampanoag tribe, led by a young chief anxious to prove himself,
allied with their former enemy, the Narragansett tribe, to fight
their new enemy, the colonists.

One of the most fascinating aspects of history is how two enemies can
carry on a brutal and almost genocidal war, and then, 80 years later,
can be allies against a common enemy. This appears to be the way
things are going today with our old World War II enemies, Germany and
Japan, and it's certainly true of protagonists in the most
destructive war in American history, the Union and the Confederacy in
the Civil War.

In this climate of general war tensions and financial distress, we
see the same pattern for how a major war occurs: There's a
generational change, then a period of financial crisis, then a series
of provocative acts by both sides, each of which is a shock and
surprise to the other side, and calls for retribution and
retaliation.

It's important to understand the role of all three of these elements.
In particular, without the generational change, the provocative acts
are met with compromise and containment, rather than retribution and
retaliation.

This is particularly important in understanding what's going on when
one side is provocative and the other side is compromising. This
often means that the generational change has occurred on the first
side, but not yet on the second.

In our own time, the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center was a
provocative act by Islamist extremists, but was met by no more than a
criminal trial for the perpetrators; the 9/11/01 attack was met with a
war against Afghanistan.

The actions of the colonists, in the face of provocations by the
Indians, seemed to display a similar range of goals. In the 1660s,
perpetrators were brought to trial, and executed if found guilty of
the most serious crimes.

The trial process was brought to a head in 1671, when King Philip
himself was tried for a series of Indian hostilities, and required by
the court to surrender all of his arms; he complied by surrendering
only a portion of them.

After that, the trial process seems to have fallen apart, as the
colonists began to lose their patience and willingness to compromise.
Trials were still held, but they became mere provocations: they were
kangaroo courts with the results preordained, and the Indian
defendants were always guilty.

These provocations kept escalating, until King Philip's War began
with Philip's attack on the colonists on Cape Cod.

The war was extremely savage and engulfed the Indians and the
colonists from Rhode Island to Maine. There were atrocities on both
sides, and the war ended with King Philip's head displayed on stick.
His wife and child were sold into slavery.

This was the most devastating war in American history on a percentage
basis, with 800 of the 52,000 colonists killed. (It was devastating
for the Indians as well.)

http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... #lab100036

Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:57 pm
by NoOneImportant
I have long understood the saying, though now highly inflammatory: "... the only good Indian is a dead Indian;" to be a term originally born from early New England, not the old West. This explains why. Bradford's history of Plymouth explains minor Indian conflicts but only covers the first 30 years of the colony, and was lost until roughly 1900.

Regarding the comments about potential tribe consolidation, the Lewis and Clark Expedition acknowledged the Sioux to be very large, and dominant tribe; they were to be greatly feared by all neighboring Indian tribes.

The generational memory aspect of events does much to explain the lack of learning from historical experience - generationally speaking the implication is quite stark, as it infers that the lessons of history just can't be learned vicariously - they have to be experienced in the flesh; they have to be lived, the killing, the starvation, the barbarity, only when lived is the full extent man's inhumanity to man brought into focus, and made to live, and understood to be real by those who lived it.

Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:55 pm
by gerald
The above --
A great way to run a planetary prison

Re: 1-Dec-13 World View -- Obamacare: 500M lines of code, $5

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:22 pm
by gerald
Capitol Hill Staffers Warned "Do Not Rely" On Obamacare Website

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-1 ... re-website


The Hill obtained an email sent to staffers on Wednesday warning them, “it is essential that you confirm your coverage in DCHL through the Disbursing Office.”

“Do not rely on your ‘My Account’ page or other correspondence from DCHL,” the email read