Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

Dear Andrew,
abs wrote: > I imagine that Koo might argue, as does Roubini, that the
> government needs to become the lender and consumer of last resort.
> In a sense, they are both saying the same thing although in
> different ways. So, put another way, if the US government begins
> to consume exports from Japan (instead of the US public consuming
> them), isn't the net change to Japan's exports zero? Now obviously
> I realize that this is not a perfect solution because the US
> government is not going to start buying all kinds of consumer
> electronics exported by Japan, but perhaps the US could start
> buying some very high tech military equipment manufactured in
> Japan resulting in a net change of zero in total exports from
> Japan to the US. Now imagine this happening on a global scale . .
Koo's theories depend on something like a "closed system."

That is, suppose I'm the government, and I pay you $1,000 "stimulus" to build a
bridge. You build the bridge, but you don't spend any of the money.
Instead, you save it in a bank account or you use it to pay off your
credit cards. Either way, the money ends up in the bank, and the
bank uses it to buy T-bills, so I get the $1,000 back.

That only works if there's no "leakage" -- that is, you don't spend
any of the money. If you buy any consumable products, like food and
clothes, then I won't get back the entire $1,000.

Of course, there has to be some leakage -- people have to eat. But
in the case of Japan, the leakage could be balanced by receiving
foreign exchange from exports.

In our case today, we know that Obama is planning a massive
"stimulus" package. This early in the deflationary spiral, a lot of
that money will be simply consumed, and will not return to the
government. The health care proposal alone will be a huge hole.
Obama's response will be to spend more and more, money that will be
consumed, and will not return to the treasury in the form of
macroeconomic savings.

It's a good thing to remind ourselves that Barack Obama has
absolutely no idea what's going on. He knew as little as Sara Palin
when he started campaigning, but he started memorizing position
papers and sound bytes, and now he can give policy speeches like the
best of the politicians.

But he doesn't have any feel whatsoever for macroeconomic discipline.
He comes from a Chicago society that viewed America as the greatest
evil in the history of the world (Reverend Wright) and that viewed
that America's only major economic problem was that the government
didn't spend enough money on poor people ("community organizing").

He has absolutely no experience with or understanding of the concept
that governments have to say "No" to people. (At least Sara Palin
had to do that as governor.)

So Obama is going to pour money into things that don't follow Koo's
formula. He'll be listening to labor unions and other special
interest groups, and he'll pour money into consumption. Furthermore,
since he has no personal experience with governmental fiscal
discipline, he'll pour out more and more money until it reaches a
crisis point.

The above description may seem like a criticism of Obama (and it is),
but as far as I know, Obama would not disagree with it. He and his
advisers have said and done absolutely nothing that I know of to
reduce expectations. All I ever hear from Obama and his advisers is
that high unemployment "is unacceptable," and that "as much money as
necessary will be spent" to reverse the situation.

So yes, what you say is theoretically possible, just as it's
theoretically possible that Obama's stimulus program will work just
fine. But as a practical matter, that's not going to happen. There
will be a completely undisciplined flood of money pouring out into
the wrong projects, until some tipping point is reached.
abs wrote: > It seems to me that if life expectancies were shorter at that
> time, that the 4 generational cycle might have been completed
> within 50 years versus the 70-80 years we have now.
Generational theory does not depend on life expectancy, which is
usually pulled down by child mortality, which is irrelevant to
generational cycles. It depends on the maximum effective human
lifespan, which has always been around 80 years.

Sincerely,

John
John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

browner55 wrote: > Even if the stimulus is paid for via macroeconomic savings (savers
> buying treasuries) this just puts off the inevitable, as the
> government must pay back the loans. My largest source of confusion
> stems from the recent Fed announcement that they will buy long
> term treasuries (is this monetizing the debt?). Additionally their
> desire to issue their own bonds really has my head spinning.
The whole "quantitative easing" program is an unproven experiment.
Nothing that Bernanke has done since the credit crisis began in
August, 2007, has worked, and his solution is to do do more -- a lot
more -- of the same.

Here's another slide from Koo's presentation:

Image

Richard Koo's presentation, exhibit 20, showing US fiscal and
monetary policy options.


This slide shows one of Koo's main theoretical points: That monetary
policy is ineffective, except to keep financial institutions
operating.

The biggest danger is that the US government will go into default.
The huge, undisciplined use of fiscal and monetary policy makes that
event a strong possibility.

Sincerely,

John
John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

Dear Joe,
jwfid wrote: > By the way, did you catch the part of his presentation where he
> discusses the difference between mortgages here in the USA and
> elsewhere? He makes a point that this could lead to a much bigger
> problem if real estate prices fall much further because borrowers
> could just decide to "return the key".
Yes. It surprised me to learn that in other countries, if the bank
forecloses on your house, then you're still personally liable, and
can't just walk away.

Sincerely,

John
Matt1989
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Matt1989 »

abs wrote:John -

Not to go too far into a tangent, but you may be aware that the Old Testament has something called the "Jubilee Year" which was supposed to occur at regular intervals every 50 years. When the Jubilee year occurred, land (and related leases on the land) would be closed and the land returned to the original owner(s). Also in the years leading up to the Jubilee year lease costs for land were supposed to be decreased. I am now beginning to wonder if our forefathers understood something about generational dynamics or cycles and correlation with "economic bubbles". It seems to me that if life expectancies were shorter at that time, that the 4 generational cycle might have been completed within 50 years versus the 70-80 years we have now. Also, I'm now thinking that some of the regulations put in place could have had the benefit of avoiding real-estate/land bubbles. Of course, religious scholars have found all kinds of alternate rationale for the Jubilee Year although I'd have to say that avoiding economic catastrophe seems far more compelling. Your thoughts?

Andrew
Most followers of S&H believe that prior to the modern era, the generational cycle was actually longer.
Gordo
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Gordo »

I'm starting to think the whole "deflation story" has become way too popular (which means the economy is about to go the other way). All the "big bears" and perma-bears have been saying we are in a deflationary death spiral, that it's impossible and stupid to think that we can have inflation during a credit implosion/contraction led slump. I "get" their arguments, but more and more I'm starting to think 2009 will be the year all of these guys (along with mainstream media which is fully on board now) are made to look like fools. I'm still not super confident about this yet, but its the direction I'm leaning right now. CPI has dipped below 0 almost exclusively because oil has cratered by 75%. Even the plunging retail sales numbers are almost completely the result of lower spending on gas.

I fully expect the S&P 500 to be 20% or higher above current levels sometime in 2009, which means another 40% plunge in the popular 2x inverse ETF some here own.

Treasuries are in an obvious bubble. It doesn't have to pop next year, but I believe it will. I don't view inflation as a "solution" to our economic problems by any means, in fact it will probably make things even worse. There are a lot of silly people right now who haven't refinanced their mortgages to take advantage of <5% 30 year fixed rates because they (apparently along with almost everyone these days) think rates are heading even lower. Some even believe the government is going to give 4.5% loans to everyone (hah). Won't they be surprised when the best 30 year fixed rate is 8 or 9%? Seems far fetched right now, but don't be shocked if it happens. And that will further destroy home prices which go down in a rapidly rising interest rate environment as loans become less affordable.

Bernanke may attempt to buy up the global supply of treasuries, as crazy as that sounds, but his plan will ultimately backfire (making the Fed the biggest bagholder of all time, and by extension, making YOU the biggest bag holder of all time).
freddyv
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Re: Financial topics

Post by freddyv »

Gordo wrote:I'm starting to think the whole "deflation story" has become way too popular (which means the economy is about to go the other way). All the "big bears" and perma-bears have been saying we are in a deflationary death spiral, that it's impossible and stupid to think that we can have inflation during a credit implosion/contraction led slump. I "get" their arguments, but more and more I'm starting to think 2009 will be the year all of these guys (along with mainstream media which is fully on board now) are made to look like fools. I'm still not super confident about this yet, but its the direction I'm leaning right now. CPI has dipped below 0 almost exclusively because oil has cratered by 75%. Even the plunging retail sales numbers are almost completely the result of lower spending on gas.

I fully expect the S&P 500 to be 20% or higher above current levels sometime in 2009, which means another 40% plunge in the popular 2x inverse ETF some here own.
You may be right about a short term move upwards in the market but everything seems to point to a continuing long term correction: Dow theory; valuations based on P/E, book value, etc; realistic earnings projections; historical time frames of secular bear markets....

As for the popular view, it seems obvious to me that most of those appearing on CNBC believe as you do: that we are heading for a nice recovery or at least a bear market rally in the next few months. That doesn't mean they are wrong, after all, the market needs to suck people back in in order to destroy even more capital, but I am leary of people's "feelings" when it comes to investing. Feelings are based on emotions and emotional decisions are killers when it comes to investing. Not a single person who believes we have bottomed offers any hard data except that they "believe" a recovery is on the way. The other argument is that stocks are undervalued, which of course is wrong based on hard data; the current P/E ratio of the S&P 500 is over 19, 30% above historical averages.

As for ETF's, there is a good article on inverse ETFs at
http://seekingalpha.com/article/112127- ... urce=yahoo

I have used the SDS ETF very effectively and it seems to not have the big problem with daily redemptions and has performed rather well over the past year. Still, I am very leary about these instruments and more and more see them as shorter term vehicles for hedging and taking advantage of panic situations.

A much worse performer is DUG, which shorts the price of oil and gas. I have used the DUG with much success but find that I was very lucky to have gotten out when I did. That was because I knew going in that this ETF was not doing what I would have expected so I was leary of holding it for any lenth of time. Had I held the DUG since I bought it (oil was over $140) I would have taken a significant loss, even though oil is now under $40. In theory DUG should be over $100 by now but last I looked it was under $30...CRAZY!

I remind myself constantly, and caution others: do your due dillengence on all data and investment vehicles BEFORE investing.

As for deflation becoming "popular", it is good to question common wisdom since wisdom seems to be so uncommon but all the factors that would cause deflation still seem to be in place and seem likely to stay in place since they have been building into our economy for literally decades. Simple demographics is a strong argument for deflation since the aging population will consume and produce less and will be drawing money out of the stock market for another decade or two. Add that to the real estate bubble that is still deflating, commodities, and the derivative bubble that has popped and there is a lot of impetus for continuing deflation. Please note that all of this is hard data; these are things that are happening and will happen, they are not based on speculation or feelings.

--Fred
John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

Dear Gordo,
Gordo wrote: > I'm starting to think the whole "deflation story" has become way
> too popular (which means the economy is about to go the other
> way). All the "big bears" and perma-bears have been saying we are
> in a deflationary death spiral, that it's impossible and stupid to
> think that we can have inflation during a credit
> implosion/contraction led slump. I "get" their arguments, but more
> and more I'm starting to think 2009 will be the year all of these
> guys (along with mainstream media which is fully on board now) are
> made to look like fools.
If I understand your argument, you're saying that deflation must be
wrong because it's become the "common wisdom."

The problem with that argument is that inflation and unlimited growth
have been the "common wisdom" up until recently, so applying your
argument to the past, inflation and growth must be wrong.

This is the heart of the problem. Any argument, no matter how
attenuated, that implies that the market is going up is accepted
without dispute; but any argument, no matter how strong, that the
market is NOT going up is viewed with suspicion.

With regard to deflation, I was making the following argument in
2003-2004: Interest rates (at that time) were very low, around 1-2%,
and if that had happened in the 70s, 80s or 90s, then inflation would
be going through the roof. Since inflation is not doing that, it
means that trend is increasingly deflationary.

Sincerely,

John
John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

Dear Fred,
freddyv wrote: > As for the popular view, it seems obvious to me that most of those
> appearing on CNBC believe as you do: that we are heading for a
> nice recovery or at least a bear market rally in the next few
> months. That doesn't mean they are wrong, after all, the market
> needs to suck people back in in order to destroy even more
> capital, but I am leary of people's "feelings" when it comes to
> investing. Feelings are based on emotions and emotional decisions
> are killers when it comes to investing. Not a single person who
> believes we have bottomed offers any hard data except that they
> "believe" a recovery is on the way. The other argument is that
> stocks are undervalued, which of course is wrong based on hard
> data; the current P/E ratio of the S&P 500 is over 19, 30% above
> historical averages.
This is absolutely right. When I listen to these airhead pundits and
analysts, I wonder if they ever listen to the ridiculous things
they're saying.

However, some of them would claim that they DO present factual
evidence: Every time that stocks have fallen in the post-WW II
period, then they always "snap back."

I heard one variation on this argument today (I was taking notes, and
I may have the numbers a little off):
Pundit/Analyst wrote: > Best buying opportunity in your lifetime for stocks.

> There are $8 trillion on the sidelines - money market funds,
> savings accounts, etc. -- waiting to move back into stocks -- this
> is 75% of the size of the stock market.

> In 1991, the stock market gained 20%(?) six months after cash
> peaked.

> In 1974, there was more money on the sidelines than in the stock
> market, and stocks gained 31% in 6 months.
You can always tell how old these guys are, just from how far back
they go. The Gen-Xers usually only go back as far as 1991; this one
went back to 1974, so he's probably a Boomer.

Sincerely,

John
freddyv
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Re: Financial topics

Post by freddyv »

Fools and bad data abound:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/28420412?__sourc ... mdpcfall08

This genius misuses data in a such a typical manner. He states that we are having the worst year in the stock market since 1931 and then proceeds to use that as a reason to be long. A couple of problems with that:

First of all we are only a year into the bear market while even less severe problems have caused bear markets of 2 years or more. The fact that we have fallen close to 50% in a single year - the first year of the bearmarket - suggests this is more like 1929-1932 than any other secular bear market so one would expect 3 years of a down market, especially considering the excesses built into the economy and the weak outlook based on more data (including demographics) than I can shake a stick at.

He then goes on to ASSUME that we will have a recovery like the one after the 90% drop...without the 90% drop. Just as a bubble goes lower the more it was overinflated an underinflated market will inflate itself faster and farther if it was over-DEflated. Just compare the 70's with the 30's. The voilatility in the 30's was much greater than the 70's because the bubble was never over-inflated like in the Roaring Twenties.

Of course this person provides no economic data to back up the theisis and the tiny bit of "data" offered is misused, which I have found is the one consistency among all the polyanaish types.

--Fred

"The world is not ending, just the world as you know it."
Gordo
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Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:18 am

Re: Financial topics

Post by Gordo »

I know, yall think a multi-year, uninterrupted deflationary death spiral is imminent, after all, just look at the Great Depression period or Japan. Well this isn't '29-'32 and it isn't Japan. We are about to find out what a determined Fed and a willing government partner can accomplish when it comes to inflation in a fiat currency world (money backed by nothing). You don't know any better than I do what can be accomplished by this current dynamic duo, nor do you know if and when a key player may be replaced by someone who does not agree with the policies or practices of their predecessor.

All I know is that treasuries have gone parabolic, which is what bubbles do before bursting:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=TLT&t=6 ... z=m&q=l&c=

Perhaps this change of course will be very brief, as in 6-8 months. Maybe the 10-year yield hits 7-8% before plunging to new lows all in the same year (wouldn't that be fascinating?) as people realize government intervention is only a temporary stimulus not likely to help much. Likewise, a 20% rise in the stock market would basically complete a 40% gain from the bottom which matches the gain from the '29 crash that was of similar proportion to the 2008 crash. After that new lows could follow in the same year.
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