the near future for america

malleni · Post by **malleni** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:35 pm

StilesBC wrote:JimZ,

Unfortunately, you don't see the world the same way the rest of the world sees it. America has, for decades, been oppressive, imperialist and hypocritical when it comes to foreign relations. To unquestioningly believe the notion that they are doing everything with good intentions in order to "spread freedom and democracy" is incredibly naive. To be sure, many of the rest of the world's opinions about American aggression are sensationalized by their own media for selfish purposes and even downright jealousy. But that is not even the point.

It's the hypocrisy that gets most people. America has the greatest law ever written. They trounce around the globe proclaiming their superiority because of these laws that provide everyone equal rights to life, liberty and happiness. And it's true. America is superior because of these laws. Superior to Europe. Superior to China. Even superior to my Canada.

But the law has been ignored for nearly a century now and the frequency that it is trodden upon is accelerating. This is what the rest of the world's real grievance is. We want to see America obey it's own laws first. Then they can proclaim righteousness. People everywhere want to see true justice. When Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc lied about the WMDs and used it to kill 1 million Iraqis, we all expected them to be impeached. When that didn't happen, we treated America the way we treat any other rogue state that lies constantly (Venezuela, Iran, China, Russia, etc): as if they and any of their actions, were illegitimate.

I give the chance of a second American civil war a far greater chance because of this. Many Americans are sick and tired of their rights being trampled over in the name of "security." Here are but a few examples:

1st Amendment - Libertarians, people who make references to the constitution, Ron Paul supporters, gun owners, gold owners, people who make references to a New World Order, a NAFTA super highway or FEMA camps shall be considered terrorists according to this brochure sent to the Missouri State Police. See the brochure here. Watch all the videos contained in this article. It is simply unbelievable. But it is all true.

2nd Amendment - Obama's calls to crack down on gun ownership. See this report from Lou Dobbs and these statements from Rahm Emmanuel, your new White House Chief of Staff. Keep in mind this terrorist list now has over 1 million Americans on it. There is no recourse and no explanation for being on it. I think they even put me on it years back. I get harassed any time I try to cross the border. So I stopped going through the hassle. Haven't returned for years.

4th Amendment - Trampled over in the name of sussing out terrorist threats. This should need no further explanation.

5th Amendment - Doesn't apply anymore if you can be considered a terrorist. Which itself can be determined by as much as committing a misdemeanor.

10th Amendment - What 10th Amendment? That's been the message for many decades now. The Federal branch operates as if it is supreme. This is why 27 States are now in the process of reaffirming their sovereignty and legislative superiority. See here.

Seriously. How much respect do you expect the rest of the world to give America when they can't even follow their own Bill of Rights?

That's not all. Emmanuel and Obama are both pushing and now rolling out their mandatory civilian service agendas. See it from their own mouths. And the whole administration seems to think it is a good idea to turn their regulatory duties over to some world regulator like the WB or the IMF and that they should collect global taxes on carbon emissions to fund their operation.

The American people are not going to let them get away with this. All it takes is one wrong move by either side (those upholding the constitution or the government) and this could go viral. Young kids without any job prospects will be easily convinced of this when they realize that terrorists abroad have no effect on them - rather it is the greedy banking elite at home that are their problem. If they think that the government and the banking elite are one and the same (which they are), it is not inconceivable for this to turn into an ideological civil war.

StilesBC,
Excellent comment.
Regarding this last scandal with vaccination - I believe that nobody in Europe (at least people around me) - do not believe that this was just "an accident".
Of course, the official reaction (not come jet) will never be of this type. Namely, Baxter has simply too much money.
Simple story was already happened with Bayer and spreading of Aids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs
Many officials in European country came in the jail, but NO ONE take responsibility from US Administration or from company Bayer.
Same sad story.

zyrktec · Post by **zyrktec** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:54 pm

Baxter Labs is run by Robert L.Parkinson, Jr. Chairman, CEO, Pres. and Harry M. Jansen Kraemer, Jr. Chairman, CEO. Both these men belong to the Commercial Club of Chicago. Another member of the Club is Rahm Emanuel. Parkinson is also a President and COO of Abbott Laboratories. When you track down the connections of the men running Baxter labs all trails run back to Chicago.

John · Post by **John** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:55 pm

Austria has Prophet and Nomad generations, just like America's
Boomers and Generation-X. Austria's Prophet and Nomad generations
are just as stupid, destructive, nihilistic, and greedy as America's.

Austria's economy is crashing because Austrian investors lent too
much money to Ukraine.

Ukraine's economy is crashing because commodity prices crashed.

If you want to blame that on the US, then go ahead. I'm sure doing
so will give you a great deal of satisfaction.

However, the fact is that Austrians were just as stupid, destructive,
nihilistic, and greedy as Americans were.

You're no different than Americans, because you're doing just what
Americans are doing: You're blaming everyone but yourselves.

John

malleni · Post by **malleni** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:58 am

Dear John,
I am not at all surprised by your reaction on this topic (as usual when people do not agree with you).

Anyway, I do not understand why you talking about it on this topic?

1. The topic is "the near future for America" - not "the near future for Europe".
2. If you think that blaming Austria or Europe and saying like - "Look! They also have a "bank problem""!.... can give you a great deal of satisfaction, than go ahead.
3. When I using word "Americans" - that does NOT mean all American people, but sooner the State i.e. United States of America as kind of "form". That is perhaps not necessary to "explain" on one discussion forum, but anyway - please do not take everything personally.

I do not saying that you have no right or that you are incorrect, but I cannot see a direct connection. Of course, we can discuss Europe and Austrian problem if you wish too. Actually, I will open a new topic with this thematic so you can relax yourself there.

malleni · Post by **malleni** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:31 am

In meantime, I try to summarize shortly what we talked about "the near future for America"...
Does not mean that everything is "truth and nothing but the truth", but it is normal discussion on one discussion forum. One giving some thesis and try to back them with some kind of proof - and another one has a different view of the situation.

So shortly, the discussion started with 2 questions:
1. does US stay in front of near civil war
2. what about terrorist threat.

After explanation of different stand points of the couple of Forum members - the thematic (as usual on the discussion forums) went to another direction. Namely Europe and particularly Austria.
It looks that for some member of this Forum the facts are so difficult to accept, that they prefer to turn direction of discussions away from the - real question. Namely - the near future for America.
The best way (they believe) is to directly attack everybody who do not mate with theirs "visions".
(Probably, they feel directly as "good Americans" and "freedom&democracy defenders" ... or something like this.)
Unfortunately - I did not (jet) see or understand - how this "visions" look like?

So - 2 simple questions dear "defenders":
1. how you understand the present position of US in the World?
2. what you believe will be the US near future?

Of course, I do not expect that you discuss from another point of view than your own.
But I expect - a concrete answers.

I already explain my point of view.
I never said that this is correct (or opposite), but that is my and believe me or not, for sure view of many of people in Europe too.

Answer on simple Question 1:
- US today is the most militarized state of the World. All this militarization was based on the pure - dread. Before the "communist dread", these day "terrorist dread". In one society based on dread - the main "human rights" are nothing the State care about. So even if you HAVE probably very good Constitution it looks that the STATE do not follow the Constitution rules (as StilleBC explained previously).
I do not know much about it, but I am not surprised at all.
Actually, US is on the best way to the totalitarian regime today.
- Unfortunately, US has enormous financial problems too today.
The World in which US and dollar monopoly play the main role is on the verge of collapse. For decades US has used this monopoly position to "expand" beyond all reasonable borders especially in the military means (since the military was always the best guarantor of this monopoly)
For decades US was consumer and rest of the World producer. (that "game" is best in case of China-US as best picture)
Thanks to the GFC, the status quo, which had been running for decades, is stressed towards a breaking point (but who knows, perhaps that inevitable breaking point could still be delayed for longer before an almighty snap happens).
Simple question: How the US going to repay its national debt?
It is more than obvious: US -is facing a situation in the coming decades of having to pay a colossal amount of public debt. The public sector is facing a massive debt many times its GDP from the unfunded Medicare and social security liabilities. With the GFC, the US government is transferring more and more private debt to the public sector through bailouts, handouts and stimulus.
Two possibilities US have:
1. accept the deflationary collapse with all negative implications it has (those implications will be even bigger with longer prolongation of deflationary wave, as it was done in last 70 years) - but still better that next...
2. mobilize its monetary printing press to massively inflate away (i.e. destruction of money - hyperinflation) with all negative implications it brings.
What will US choose - we can just guess.

Unfortunately for all citizen of the World, the leading Elite in the US looks like try to find "another way" out!
Namely, in attempt to " PROVOKE a "black swan"!
1. threatening the World with "a new Great war" (if US is NOT satisfying)
2. causing a great damage on the creditor nations on the other way. The story with Baxter vaccination is CLEAR FACT that US try to provoke a huge pandemic infection in the Europe and Asia which can bring it incomparable advantages:
- with 60% of dead rate the Bird Flu would destroy at least 50% of US creditors human capacity (lets say at lease 200 millions death in Europe and perhaps one billion in Asia!!!).
- Baxter will gain enormous PROFIT!!! Part of it will go to the State of course too.
- Since Baxter probably already HAS vaccination - the "deathly tests" are just sent to 18 countries OUTSIDE US!!!! The simple plan is to start pandemic outside USA which giving time the Administration to prepare massive vaccination there and stop it on the borders of the US.

"Nice" black swan - and US "economy" is again the "top of the World"!!!

Sounds unbelievable, and it is indeed.
BUT Baxter is a huge concern. Even in a village hospital some rules CAN NOT be "forgotten"!!!
Even with all "no comments" from Baxter those days - they were forced to admit once in fron of experts from World Health Organization: the "test vaccinations" were PRODUCED in US and sent to the 18 (!) countries OUTSIDE US!!!
This kind of "mistake" - even in very underdeveloped company (and especially not for giant as Baxter) - CANNOT happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anybody ask the questions mostly of Europeans (I believe even Asians):
- Does the US State involved in this vaccination scandal?
- Does the United State of America (trough Baxter company) prepared TO KILL MORE THAN 1 BILLION PEOPLE around the World?
(....Even if you in US will NEVER hear anything about it - since politicians try to damp this scandal....)

Answer is clear:
YES! Without any doubt.

Answer on simple Question 2:

Regarding the "near future of US" - I can not say anything bright.
Unfortunately, since US empire IS in greatest danger of simple existence - the WHOLE World MUST BE AFRAID!

I am sorry dear Americans, that I disagree with your "dreams about greatness of US" as well as its "freedom & democracy made in US" rubbish.
But I and probably many (millions) of other people OUTSIDE US are really afraid of that day when US in stead of "freedom & democracy" bombs start to spread Bird Flu virus.

If "free economy&market American way" means that we must work for you and continue to credit your behaves - otherwise you will kill us (on one or other way) - do we really have an alternative?

On the other side, if US does NOT succeed to PROVOKE a "black swan" and "save US economy" - the near future of US can be indeed also a civil war since for it you need not much.
Just: lawlessness, poverty, injustice, many different group of interests, culture of aggression, enough weapon.....
All mixture is also there.

StilesBC · Post by **StilesBC** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:28 am

Chim Richalds · Post by **Chim Richalds** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:00 pm

Leaving aside all the wacky conspiracy theories about the US Government infecting people with bird flu or some such, I think the original intent of this thread poses an interesting and important question that is worthy of some discussion: is there a possibility of civil war in the US? As I stated previously, I think it is certainly possible, but not probable after looking at the existing fault lines in America.

With all the economic and political stresses I feel in the undercurrents of America there is a very real possibility for Civil conflict. A crisis event John describes beautifully that begins as something else and escalates ie. riots about the economy which give the Federal Government the excuse to declare martial law, suspending Congress, and the Constitution, and this triggers the Civil War.

My first inclination is to ask, if you are predicting a civil war in America, who will be the protagonists? Whom will be fighting whom? It seems like you are suggesting a conflict in which middle-class Americans, angry at the government's handling of the economic crisis, take to the streets and foment bloody riots. The government declares martial law, and all hell breaks loose.

The problem with this hypothesis is that the United States in in a Generational Crisis period, where the young Civic Generation is ready and willing to fight and die for the country. The Crisis is when a society unites to confront national or foreign problems. A civil war Crisis happens when societies on either side of a fault line unite to face the threat from the other group. In the American Civil War, Southernors united to fight Northerners, and vice versa.

What you are saying is sounds plausible, but I don't see any scenario where one group would fight another. In your scenario, either the rioting masses bring down the government and form their own, or the government squashes the riots. Neither of these scenarios really constitutes a civil war--the violence fizzles out fairly quickly. This seems like it couldv'e been plausible in the 1990's, but not today.

I suppose one scenario could be an "Iranian"-style revolution where a formerly small movement topples the government and forms their own. But the Iranian Revolution was only the beginning of that country's Crisis--far more serious was the resulting Iran-Iraq war that killed well over 1 million people. My point is, if there is a coup in the United States, then what would be the outcome? Seems it would be just one government replacing another. As civil wars are hardly ever (with some exceptions) faught over ideological differences, who would make up the movement that topples the government? Southernors? Would Northernors fight back? Seems highly unlikely to me.

I think a far more likely scenario is this: As the economic crisis increases and Americans become increasingly desperate and angry at the government and business leadership, the government uses the tried and true method of blaming a foreign power for the country's hardship. The obvious scapegoat here is China. I'll even go so far as to predict what the discourse will be: Government officials will start spreading the notion that China caused the financial crisis because its over-saving strategy led to cheap capital that kept interests rates low and thus caused the housing bubble.

Any people will find it much easier to blame the "other" rather than their own government, unless that government is seen as "the other" by the people or a segment of the population.

Matt1989 · Post by **Matt1989** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:53 pm

I think that a 2- or 3-sided civil war is unlikely. A big theme in this Crisis could very well be the breakdown of the nation-state, as allegiance to ideology replaces loyalty toward country. Of course, fighting would be along 4GW lines.

StilesBC · Post by **StilesBC** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:32 am

Chim,

Why are they wacky conspiracy theories? Because you don't want to hear them?

There's motive: the bleeding heart liberal environmentalists have repeated extensively their dream for a massive reduction in world population via eugenics
And there's historical precedent: Governments have always attacked their own in order to incite emotion.

Just because something is uncomfortable doesn't make it untrue. I hope it never happens. But the people in power are sick and twisted sociopaths. I wouldn't put it past them. Watch the videos above and then tell me I'm crazy.

As far as a civil war goes, it would be along the same lines as the last civil war: Federalists against Constitutionalists (no the civil war was not about slavery). It was about federal power. That's what any other civil war would be about. But I do believe a foreign war is more likely - with China/Pakistan as one front and East Africa the other.

Hey John, what are the chances we just skip over all this crisis stuff and go back to candycanes and toothfairies? Seeing the world unravel so clearly sucks.

Matt1989 · Post by **Matt1989** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:06 pm

StilesBC wrote:As far as a civil war goes, it would be along the same lines as the last civil war: Federalists against Constitutionalists (no the civil war was not about slavery). It was about federal power.

No it wasn't, and this revisionism reeks of some of the worst stuff found on LRC. No one really cares about federal power insofar as it does not affect them (or those who they sympathize with) in a personal matter. (Or to be more blunt, people only respect constitutions insofar as they reflect their specific ends.) "States' rights" were merely a clever sort of justification for upholding southern practices; Constitutionalist ideology was simply a means to that end. The issue of slavery was the catalyst, and although most southerners didn't own slaves, they were convinced to join in the struggle since there were huge cultural differences (note: fault line) between the industrialized north and the agrarian south.

Today, there are so many ethnic differences in the West that a town 3,000 miles away may have more in common with yours than one only 20 miles away -- so if fighting breaks out, it will look nothing like the last one.

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