Religion / Theology

Topics related to theology.
Cool Breeze
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: The Bad Spirits

Post by Cool Breeze »

Navigator wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:03 pm
As for Hell, I do not believe in a physical place of eternal torment. But I do believe that Satan and his followers, as well as those who could have done good (and repented of sin) in this life but did not, will eternally have to deal with the burning feelings that they have missed out on becoming heirs of Heavenly Father solely because of their own actions and choices. This condition, permanently outside of God’s presence, is what I would consider Hell.
You have orthodox beliefs (such as hell isn't a physical place of torment, which is true), it's just that you cloud them with private speculation which is unnecessary on many other levels. The only thing you have that's off in this last paragraph, which is mostly accurate, is that they won't be outside of God's presence, because ultimately he is all and in all. Constant rebellion, that is, not liking and attempting to reject the source of life, is their own, sad creation (of Hell).

Again, let's stick with what we know: acquire virtue, be faithful and trusting in God, discern the spirit of God, help and love others and repent when we make mistakes. Right?

Navigator
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Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Navigator »

So far I have covered what I consider are some of the basic questions that most cannot answer. So far, they have included:

Who is God? What is our relationship to him?
What is the nature of God?
Where did we come from?
Why did we come to earth?
What are we supposed to accomplish in this life?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
Why doesn't God fix things?
Why do some people chose to do bad?
Why am I tempted to do bad things?
How can I find forgiveness for things I have done?


I believe I have pointed out that the Bible has hints as to what the answers to these questions are, but that it cannot, on its own, answer these questions.

This is because much of the truth was lost, early on in the history of Christianity.

But the complete truth and a full understanding of Christ's gospel is not the only thing that was lost. I will get into this tomorrow when I have more time to write.

Navigator
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Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

Organizational Corruption

Post by Navigator »

I do not believe that it was just the simple truths of original Christian doctrine that were changed during/shortly after the lives of the Ancient Apostles.

Christ set up a specific structure, organizing a Church, membership of which was entered into by being Baptized (the old person is symbolically buried, and the new person, committed to Christ's teaching, is raised up).

At the head of Christ's church were the Twelve Apostles. They were assisted by others with subordinate callings. These included the Seventy (see Luke 10 - their mission was to go in advance of the Lord), the Seven who assisted with temporal welfare (Stephen was one of these), and Bishops to lead local congregations.

I believe that Christ intended for this organizational structure to continue. After Judas' death, the remaining Apostles met to fill his vacancy. They decided who the best candidates were, then prayed and received the answer that they should call Matthias.

Later on Paul, Barnabus, Andronicus, Silas, Timothy, and Apollos were also identified as Apostles. I believe they were also similarly called to fill vacancies caused by death of preceding Apostles.

The maintenance of this Apostolic body appears to have broken down before the end of the first century. Without Apostles, local bishops were left to their own devices, and the corruption of doctrine and practices I wrote about previously only accelerated. Then the bishops fought amongst themselves for authority, primacy, and also, unfortunately, power and dominion.

To me, all of this points to a loss of not only doctrine, but also of the organizational structure meant to maintain the purity of that doctrine (as much of what the Apostles seem to have been doing, as attested to by their letters, was to instruct people on the truth and point out what deviated from it).

I believe a good indication of organizational corruption from the original structures is the use of the previously Roman religious title of "Pontifex Maximus" within later Christian theocracy.

Navigator
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Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

Loss of Authority

Post by Navigator »

I believe that simple original doctrine proclaimed by Christ and later his Apostles and the original theocratic organizational structure set up by Christ and then continued by the Apostles were lost by the late First Century.

Along with the structure of Christ's organization, another important thing was lost.

This additional crucial loss to early Christianity, I believe, was the loss of the authority to act in Christ’s name.

Authority is the power to act in behalf of someone or some organization. As an example, as an Army Officer, I had a Commission from the President to direct subordinates in carrying out the instructions of the President and his subordinates (my superiors). I had my Commission as the result of a training and selection process ultimately overseen by the President as Commander in Chief.

I believe it is very clear that the Apostles did not decide on their own to be Apostles. Christ selected them personally. After his ascension, and as I related previously, the Apostles met to select replacements to their number, doing so by divine inspiration. They did so with other organizational offices, such as in the selection of Stephen and others to be among the Seven. I believe they also did this in the selection of congregational leaders, the Bishops.

The question for me, and for many, is whether or not the Bishops, over time, retained the authority the Apostles seemed to have. Given what happened with the selection process for theological office after the demise of the Apostles, I doubt this.

Gibbons, in his seminal work on the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, describes in detail how the selection of Bishops very early on turned into election by the masses, and then later into simony (buying the office), or worse.

I do not believe, as did those who broke from the Papacy in the Reformation, that the leadership of the Catholic Church in the dark/middle ages demonstrated the selection of good people who were engaged in doing things at Christ’s direction. Unfortunately, quite to the contrary.

So I believe that even the authority to act in Christ’s name, given by him to his Apostles, was lost around the same time that gospel truths and Christ’s organizational structures were changed.

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Tom Mazanec
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Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Tom Mazanec »

Was Christ a man? If so, he was either a liar or a lunatic.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

John
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Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
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Re: Religion / Theology

Post by John »

** 07-Nov-2021 World View: The Most Basic Question of All
Navigator wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:52 am
> So far I have covered what I consider are some of the basic
> questions that most cannot answer. So far, they have included:

> Who is God? What is our relationship to him?
> What is the nature of God?
> Where did we come from?
> Why did we come to earth?
> What are we supposed to accomplish in this life?
> Why do bad things happen to good people?
> Why doesn't God fix things?
> Why do some people chose to do bad?
> Why am I tempted to do bad things?
> How can I find forgiveness for things I have done?
You haven't addressed the most basic question of all:

Why is there anything?

jdcpapa
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:38 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by jdcpapa »

My 2 cents: So far as I understand it, in theory, "anything" came from "nothing". Somewhere along the line an advanced intelligence concluded that "anything is better than nothing". :?: ;)

John
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Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Contact:

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by John »

** 08-Nov-2021 World View: Mathematical proof by contradiction
John wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:20 pm
> You haven't addressed the most basic question of all:
> Why is there anything?
jdcpapa wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:00 am
> My 2 cents: So far as I understand it, in theory, "anything" came
> from "nothing". Somewhere along the line an advanced intelligence
> concluded that "anything is better than nothing". :?: ;)
Another way is a mathematical proof by contradiction:

* Assume that there is nothing.

* Then nobody could ask the question, "Why is there anything?"

* But we DID ask the question, "Why is there anything?"

* That's a mathematical contradiction.

* Therefore, the claim that "there is nothing" is wrong.

* Therefore, there is something.

* QED

Oh wait. That "proves" that there is something, but it doesn't answer
the question of "why?" Why is there anything?

jdcpapa
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:38 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by jdcpapa »

John wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:14 pm
** 08-Nov-2021 World View: Mathematical proof by contradiction
John wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:20 pm
> You haven't addressed the most basic question of all:
> Why is there anything?
jdcpapa wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:00 am
> My 2 cents: So far as I understand it, in theory, "anything" came
> from "nothing". Somewhere along the line an advanced intelligence
> concluded that "anything is better than nothing". :?: ;)
Another way is a mathematical proof by contradiction:

* Assume that there is nothing.

* Then nobody could ask the question, "Why is there anything?"

* But we DID ask the question, "Why is there anything?"

* That's a mathematical contradiction.

* Therefore, the claim that "there is nothing" is wrong.

* Therefore, there is something.

* QED

Oh wait. That "proves" that there is something, but it doesn't answer
the question of "why?" Why is there anything?
Because an advanced intelligence decided "anything" (an objective physical reality) is better than "nothing" (a subjective non-physical reality)? "Mind of God: What the bible code suggests is that behind the miracles of the old testament there was an advanced intelligence. The code calls it a computer. The root of the word in Hebrew that means computer means thought. When the code reveals a computer is behind the miracles, it may also reveal the mind [of God]. The code reveals that non-human intelligence does exist. " ~The Bible Code by Michael Dresnin

Cool Breeze
Posts: 2935
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Cool Breeze »

John wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:20 pm
** 07-Nov-2021 World View: The Most Basic Question of All
Navigator wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:52 am
> So far I have covered what I consider are some of the basic
> questions that most cannot answer. So far, they have included:

> Who is God? What is our relationship to him?
> What is the nature of God?
> Where did we come from?
> Why did we come to earth?
> What are we supposed to accomplish in this life?
> Why do bad things happen to good people?
> Why doesn't God fix things?
> Why do some people chose to do bad?
> Why am I tempted to do bad things?
> How can I find forgiveness for things I have done?
You haven't addressed the most basic question of all:

Why is there anything?
Creating is one of the holy attributes of God. Men, being made in the image of God, were given this attribute to participate in his glory.

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