Religion / Theology

Topics related to theology.
User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Bob Butler »

jdcpapa wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:15 pm
I would like to introduce a theoretical model of reality based on quantum physics...
Hmm... I worked with quantum physics too in my college days, but came up with something different. At the time I was an engineering major and member of the Christian Fellowship. What is the dominant determination of what happens when, physics or prayer? I ended up eventually looking into parapsychology. Under what condition and how does consciousness over ride physics?

The answer I ended up with is that one is slightly more likely to observe the most emotional of the Many Worlds predicted by quantum physics. Which of the many possible solutions to what can be is observed? You see, the higher the emotion one feels, the higher the metabolism, the more alternate universes are spun off, the more likely it is to observe one of the more emotional probabilities.

Note, you end up with reverse time causality. The effect comes before the cause. This is an experimental result in some parapsychology experiments, an experimental, repeatable result which physics without reverse time causality cannot explain.

Is what we called 'Christian coincidence' real? Does prayer and belief effect what is observed? Yes. As long as this results in intense emotion.

Is this result rational and sentient? Does it predict an all knowing, all powerful and moral God? Well, no. It predicts an emotional universe. Note, in order to have emotion, you have to have life. Life under this system becomes more probable.

And I never understood quantum physics until I considered cross time interference. An electron coexisted and interfered with all probable places it might be, has been, or might be, that are consistent with what is observed, though this does not say this is the only real and possible observation. Many Worlds. An electron shell is a set of possible electrons orbits consistent with all observations. As soon as you have a different observation, you have another of the Many Worlds and a lack of interference.

But neither the parapsychologists, scientists, occultists or priests wanted to believe it. It was too weird. They had each their own basic way of looking at the world which wasn't consistent at all with what I came up with. So they rejected any system which contradicts what they need, be this in physics or religion. The physicists rejected reverse time causality. They were too fixated on the past causing the present. The parapsychologists were too much into mind over matter. A system which had the mind causing nothing other than metabolism shift didn't meet their expectations. The religious thinkers were locked into an all knowing, all powerful and benevolent God, and this emotional shift made them unhappy.

Which got me more into exploring worldviews, how people see the world differently. This is a much more difficult thing than quantum physics.

I don't expect the system to take off here either, but that's what I came up with.

jdcpapa
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:38 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by jdcpapa »

jdcpapa wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:15 pm
I would like to introduce a theoretical model of reality based on quantum physics...
Bob Butler wrote:.........exploring worldviews, how people see the world differently. This is a much more difficult thing than quantum physics.

I don't expect the system to take off here either, but that's what I came up with.
I introduced it because Navigator hit a few points that are corroborated within the subject theoretical framework:
Navigator wrote:Each of us existed as an individual. We had different talents and personalities. We were taught by our Heavenly Father, and we learned, progressed and matured. This is alluded to in God’s interaction with the prophet Jeremiah (ch1:4-5):
4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
According to the theory, the "soul" (free will awareness unit) is a sentient being with its own personality. The soul "merges" with the human body sometime before birth. The human body "adopts" the soul's personality. There is documentary evidence (University of Virginia's study of reincarnation) that indicates that the soul ceases to remember its true self sometime before the human's age of 7 years.

This theory defines determinism as someone who "believes" they are a human with free will having a conscious experience on earth. When theoretically, they are "soul" with free will having a human experience. When in practice it produces a significant difference in perspective over human behavior.

FullMoon
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:55 pm

Re: Mortality's Test

Post by FullMoon »

Navigator wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:43 pm
Navigator wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:12 pm

But we also know, through Christ’s teachings, that loving each other (even our enemies) and taking care of each other is of the utmost importance. We are responsible to take care of widows, orphans, the disabled, the poor and downtrodden should we have means to do so.
The bit about loving each other and taking care of each other is "of the utmost".

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.

I think you are wrong to say all conservatives are full of hate. If they proclaim to by Christian, it is hypocritical. I have never espoused any kind of hatred. I certainly see plenty of hate and especially hypocrisy on the other side.

It is a gross misrepresentation to classify "all" as "being a certain way". This certainly leads to misunderstanding and conflict.
Very well said and effective deflection of the kind of hate and hypocrisy we see in excessive abundance at this time.

Navigator
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

Re: Morality's Test

Post by Navigator »

Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:37 pm
Navigator wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:12 pm
I personally have found that God’s laws are the equivalent of “don’t touch a hot stove”, “don’t stick your fingers in an electric socket”, or “don’t cross the street before looking both ways”. They are all meant to protect us from pain and harm.
Theses are commandments to love, not to avoid hot stoves and electric sockets and other harm.
Missed this earlier. Many of the commandments are written as "thou shalt not...". Meaning, basically "don't do this". These include, don't murder, don't steal, don't covet, don't commit adultery (immorality really), don't bear false witness, and so on.

These are the ones I am referring to as the "don't touch a hot stove or you will get burned". These proscriptive commandments, while on the face seem to "limit" what we can do, are, in my experience, meant to keep us from harm and pain.

Navigator
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

Philosophy, Lost Truth, and Revelation

Post by Navigator »

I believe that Heavenly Father and his Son, Jesus Christ do not want their children to have to wander through life on their own unsure of what their lives are about and what they need to do in mortality.

I believe that from the beginning of history, the truth has usually been available, and that people can, through study, understand it.

First off, what is truth. Truth is a knowledge of things as they were, as they now are, and as they will be. (I didn’t come up with that by the way, but it’s the best definition I have ever heard or read).

Two plus two is four. It doesn’t change. My wanting it to be five will not make it so.

I believe the gospel (knowledge of God, knowledge of what I need to accomplish in life, knowledge of what happened before I was born and what will happen after I die) was always the same and will always be the same. God, to me, does not change.

In regard to disseminating the truth pertaining to the gospel, I believe God has always operated the same way. In ancient Israel, he called prophets, who explained the gospel to people as well as reminding them what they needed to do.

In Christ’s day, he taught the gospel himself, and he set up an organization to teach it to others after he was gone. He, and they, warned people about deviating from the truth as the result of philosophical teachings. I mentioned some of these previously, such as Gnosticism and Platonics. Both look at God as some kind of spirit (or consciousness, or even “the force”).

The warnings about this are still in the New Testament.

Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

God talked to his prophets and later the Apostles. He gave them clear direction through revelation. When they had questions, he would reveal to them what truth was. They then disseminated that to others.

The problem was that many initially converted to Christ and the gospel started to incorporate more and more non-gospel philosophies and traditions into their worship. The Apostles tried to combat this, especially Timothy, one of the later apostles. (the below are just snipits to get the point across)

1 Tim. 1:6 some having swerved have turned aside
1 Tim. 4:1 giving heed to seducing spirits
2 Tim. 1:15 all they which are in Asia be turned away from me
2 Tim. 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred
2 Tim. 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power
2 Tim. 4:4 turn away their ears from the truth … unto fables
2 Pet. 2:1 false prophets also among the people
2 Pet. 3:17 being led away with the error of the wicked
1 Jn. 2:18 now are there many antichrists
1 Jn. 4:1 many false prophets are gone out into the world


I believe the apostles knew they were fighting a loosing battle. They knew that with their departure, many gospel truths would be lost.

Paul wrote this in a letter to the church in Thessaloniki:

2 Thes. 2:2-3 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

To me, this means that the truth was lost for a while. The dark ages are a testament to that.

Fortunately much of the Bible and the writings of the Apostles survived, and became accessible to all.

Yet, even with that, the interpretations within modern Christianity are wide and varied. But God can reveal lost truths, as he has done throughout time, through revelation.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Re: Morality's Test

Post by Bob Butler »

Navigator wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:47 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:37 pm
Navigator wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:12 pm
I personally have found that God’s laws are the equivalent of “don’t touch a hot stove”, “don’t stick your fingers in an electric socket”, or “don’t cross the street before looking both ways”. They are all meant to protect us from pain and harm.
Theses are commandments to love, not to avoid hot stoves and electric sockets and other harm.
Missed this earlier. Many of the commandments are written as "thou shalt not...". Meaning, basically "don't do this". These include, don't murder, don't steal, don't covet, don't commit adultery (immorality really), don't bear false witness, and so on.

These are the ones I am referring to as the "don't touch a hot stove or you will get burned". These proscriptive commandments, while on the face seem to "limit" what we can do, are, in my experience, meant to keep us from harm and pain.
Yes, most of the Ten Commandments are at their core 'Thou Shall Not..." Even then a few of the Ten are positive. Honor your parents. Remember the sabbath. Your characterization of the shall nots are reasonable.

But Jesus's two commandments, to love God and your neighbor are positive and inclusive.

Different people are driven by different things. But a commandment to love implies the shall nots. Loving all is not consistent with coveting, murdering, lying, committing adultery, etc...

One thing of note is that the shall not commandments of the Ten tell one how to live among a community. The examples you gave tell of how to interact with things: streets and electric sockets.

jdcpapa
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:38 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by jdcpapa »

"Man is a spirit with a body. Not a body with a spirit." ~The Master Key

Romans chapter 8 The flesh and the spirit 1-13: 9-but you are not in the flesh on the contrary you are in the spirit.

User avatar
Tom Mazanec
Posts: 4180
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Tom Mazanec »

So, Navigator, you think Jesus was lying when He said the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church?
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

Cool Breeze
Posts: 2935
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Philosophy, Lost Truth, and Revelation

Post by Cool Breeze »

Navigator wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:36 pm
To me, this means that the truth was lost for a while. The dark ages are a testament to that.
Navi, stick with your conclusions on how one should act and repent, because your speculation and your own private interpretation will only cause more problems for you and others. Just keep it simple and tell them that to each man it will be rendered, according to his works.

The truth was never lost, it was, is and always will be a person. He is always with us, He is Jesus Christ.

St. Paul said there must be divisions among us, so that the genuine can be approved. Quite clearly, that is the Church, and the rest is speculation or heresy, which indeed has always been with us.

The funniest thing about leftism (this doesn't refer to you Navi) is that they don't believe in Christ yet they think they are better Christians than the Christians themselves, lol. Covetousness and Babylon are their gods.

Navigator
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

The Bad Spirits

Post by Navigator »

Yes, I do believe that many truths were lost from the gospel that Christ and his Apostles taught. The basic truth that there is a God, and that Christ is our Savior remained. But, as I have explained previously, I believe that Christians introduced a lot of philosophical mumbo-jumbo into the gospel, and obscured the true nature of God. Hints as to the truth remained, and I have pointed some of them out.

Similarly, hints of other truths remain. Conflict over the meaning of these hints has often led to splintering within the Christian community.

In moving on with an explanation of my beliefs, I would like to finish up a bit with additional things that are hinted at in the New Testament but are not fully explained.

I mentioned before that I believe that we are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father. I believe that he created this world to give us the opportunity to have physical form, ultimately (after the resurrection) like he does. I believe that we were willing to come to earth to have this opportunity, even though it meant that we would be subject to temptations. If we gave in to temptations, meaning that we didn’t obey God’s commandments, and did not repent and avail ourselves of Christ’s atonement, we would not be able to return to our Heavenly Father.

But I don’t believe that all of Heavenly Father’s spirit children were on board with this plan. I believe that Lucifer and many spirits revolted against this plan. Lucifer and his followers thus came out in rebellion against Heavenly Father, in his very presence. As a result, Lucifer became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of Heavenly Father’s presence.

This is alluded to in the Bible:
Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Rev 12:4, 7-9 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Satan and his followers do not get physical bodies. They remain as spirits eternally. (Note - their desire for bodies is often manifest during Christ's ministry as recorded in the New Testament). But as spirits permanently cast out of Heavenly Father’s presence.

These spirits are immensely jealous of those who progressed to the physical sphere. They wish most of all to prevent those who have come to Earth from returning to Heavenly Father.

These spirits are often the source of bad thoughts and temptations for bad behavior on our part. We have to choose between good, what God wants us to do, and evil, which is what Satan wants us to do.

Heavenly Father allows this in mortality to test us. We become all the more stronger when we triumph over temptation. He also provides a way for us should we give in; if we repent and strive to do better.

In the end, after mortality, Satan and his followers will have no power or influence over us.

As for Hell, I do not believe in a physical place of eternal torment. But I do believe that Satan and his followers, as well as those who could have done good (and repented of sin) in this life but did not, will eternally have to deal with the burning feelings that they have missed out on becoming heirs of Heavenly Father solely because of their own actions and choices. This condition, permanently outside of God’s presence, is what I would consider Hell.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests