Abortion

Topics related to theology.
Higgenbotham
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Re: Abortion

Post by Higgenbotham »

Higgenbotham wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:23 pm
In my opinion, the issue of abortion can only be intelligently debated within a larger social context.

My understanding, and I haven't had personal experience with this in some time, is that kids are being given these options by various factions:

1. Don't have sex until you're married. Minority view.
2. Have sex, but use birth control. If birth control fails, abortion is an option. Default option for the middle and upper classes.
3. Have sex and, don't worry, the government will pay for everything if you get pregnant. Default option for the lower class.
I've gone in reverse order, discussing Option 3 for a bit, then Option 2, and how both fail their respective adherents. Option 1 is the easiest to discuss in these terms. It's that it would be considered to be a good goal to have 15-18 year old virgins, but it's not a good result to have 27-30 year old virgins. Due to all the hoops that have to be jumped through for most to land family supporting jobs, using Option 1 therefore also fails its respective adherents. So like most things in mainstream US politics today, it comes down to choosing the least worst alternative or stepping outside the system and getting creative in terms of finding ways to avoid these traps.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

Higgenbotham
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Re: Abortion

Post by Higgenbotham »

John wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:29 pm
Saturday, December 03, 2022

This is something that I first posted in 2005:
Devil's Advocate wrote: > I am nevertheless a believer that human nature does not progress
> at all. Thus, no matter how "good" life is, there is always going
> to be a tendency to knock it, to want something else or different.
> I think Solomon summed it up pretty clearly: We're born into
> trouble and trouble follows us all the days of our lives.
I have to agree.
Devil's Advocate wrote: > I guess the question might be better rephrased: Do you ever find
> yourself wishing you weren't born?
This question was considered in the play Man of La Mancha. In
this scene, the other Inquisition prisoners have put Miguel de
Cervantes on trial and are threatening to destroy the manuscript of
Don Quixote de la Mancha that Cervantes has written. In his
defense, Cervantes explains the madness of Don Quixote, who is
accused of not seeing "life as it is":
Miguel de Cervantes wrote: > "'Life as it is.' I have lived for over forty years and I've
> seen 'life as it is'. Pain. Misery. Cruelty beyond belief.
> I've heard all the voices of God's noblest creature -- moans from
> bundles of filth in the street. I've been a soldier and a slave.
> I've seen my comrades fall in battle or die more slowly under the
> lash in Africa. I've held them at the last moment. These were men
> who saw 'life as it is,' but they died despairing.
>
> No glory. No bray of last words. Only their eyes, filled with
> confusion, questioning, 'Why?'
>
> I do not think they were asking why they were dying, but why they
> had ever lived.

> When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies?
> Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams, this
> may be madness. To seek treasure where there is only trash. Too
> much sanity may be madness. But maddest of all -- to see life as
> it is, and not as it should be!"
> http://www.reelclassics.com/Actors/O'Toole/otoole2.htm
Play the following MP3 file for full effect:
http://www.reelclassics.com/Audio_Video ... adness.mp3

Generational theory presumably tells us about 'life as it is.' If
Cervantes is right, then perhaps those of us who study generational
theory are the ones who are mad. I'd be hard pressed to disagree.

John


John wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:31 pm
I feel sorry for you guys. At my Methuselean age, I'm not going to be
around to see how this mess unravels (at least I hope I won't). But
most of you guys are going to be unlucky enough to see what happens.
I feel bad for you. As Higgie once described it, the living will envy
the dead.
I haven't yet found myself wishing I was never born, but believe that is coming. I'm sure you will be in my thoughts when it does.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

John
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Re: Abortion

Post by John »

sunday, December 4th, 2022

there are four related policies: abortion, capital punishment, doctor assisted suicide, and war. all four of these policies are in the intersection of politics and morality. on the one hand, they all pass on the political question of government approved murder. on the other hand, they all pass on the biblical commandment, thou shalt not kill.

I can't recall anyone I've talked to being consistent on these four policies. liberals tend to support abortion, but oppose capital punishment. conservatives tend to oppose abortion, but approve of capital punishment.

support for doctor assisted suicide depends less on political ideology that on age. older people, such as myself, usually support doctor assisted suicide, while young people, who have no clue what it's like to be old, tend to oppose it, unless they've had a deep personal experience with an older person.

since suicide in general is one of my favorite topics to talk about, I've had some fun here in liberal Massachusetts on the subject.

in one conversation, I was talking to a social worker, and she said definitively that I had absolutely no right to commit suicide. I responded by saying that since she's a woman living in Massachusetts, I'm going to assume that she's a feminist and pro-abortion, and that she goes around screaming that her body is her own, and nobody has the right to tell her what to do with it. well, I added, my body is my own and nobody has any right to tell me what to do with it. that pretty much shut her up.

in another conversation, a psychiatrist was saying that committing suicide was always immoral. my response was that he was probably pro-feminist, and therefore he thought it was perfectly all right for a metal rod to be shoved into a woman in order to smash the head of her baby, even though that baby might otherwise live for 60 or 70 years, but surprisingly he doesn't think it's okay for an old person to kill himself, even though that person has no reason to go on living.

as for myself, I've had a fairly easy life, at least until recently. however, for the last 20 years I've been developing generational Dynamics, and I've seen life as it is. so I agree with
my previous quote from
Miguel de Cervantes,
who said: "'Life as it is.' I have lived for over forty years and I've seen 'life as it is'. Pain. Misery. Cruelty beyond belief."

and so, I have no objection to abortion, capital punishment or suicide.

as for war, generational Dynamics says that it's necessary for the evolution of the human race.

Guest

Re: Abortion

Post by Guest »

Higgenbotham wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:34 pm
John wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:29 pm
Saturday, December 03, 2022

This is something that I first posted in 2005:
Devil's Advocate wrote: > I am nevertheless a believer that human nature does not progress
> at all. Thus, no matter how "good" life is, there is always going
> to be a tendency to knock it, to want something else or different.
> I think Solomon summed it up pretty clearly: We're born into
> trouble and trouble follows us all the days of our lives.
I have to agree.
Devil's Advocate wrote: > I guess the question might be better rephrased: Do you ever find
> yourself wishing you weren't born?
This question was considered in the play Man of La Mancha. In
this scene, the other Inquisition prisoners have put Miguel de
Cervantes on trial and are threatening to destroy the manuscript of
Don Quixote de la Mancha that Cervantes has written. In his
defense, Cervantes explains the madness of Don Quixote, who is
accused of not seeing "life as it is":
Miguel de Cervantes wrote: > "'Life as it is.' I have lived for over forty years and I've
> seen 'life as it is'. Pain. Misery. Cruelty beyond belief.
> I've heard all the voices of God's noblest creature -- moans from
> bundles of filth in the street. I've been a soldier and a slave.
> I've seen my comrades fall in battle or die more slowly under the
> lash in Africa. I've held them at the last moment. These were men
> who saw 'life as it is,' but they died despairing.
>
> No glory. No bray of last words. Only their eyes, filled with
> confusion, questioning, 'Why?'
>
> I do not think they were asking why they were dying, but why they
> had ever lived.

> When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies?
> Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams, this
> may be madness. To seek treasure where there is only trash. Too
> much sanity may be madness. But maddest of all -- to see life as
> it is, and not as it should be!"
> http://www.reelclassics.com/Actors/O'Toole/otoole2.htm
Play the following MP3 file for full effect:
http://www.reelclassics.com/Audio_Video ... adness.mp3

Generational theory presumably tells us about 'life as it is.' If
Cervantes is right, then perhaps those of us who study generational
theory are the ones who are mad. I'd be hard pressed to disagree.

John


John wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:31 pm
I feel sorry for you guys. At my Methuselean age, I'm not going to be
around to see how this mess unravels (at least I hope I won't). But
most of you guys are going to be unlucky enough to see what happens.
I feel bad for you. As Higgie once described it, the living will envy
the dead.
I haven't yet found myself wishing I was never born, but believe that is coming. I'm sure you will be in my thoughts when it does.
In the spring of 2000, after escaping the siege of Grozny, and then Chechnya (a country whose independence was now gone), I found myself in Nazran, being aggressively pursued by the Russian army, GRU, and FSB. I will never forget standing on a slope at the edge of Nazran and looking at a large bird in the sky. How I wished I could be that bird. And I remember wishing that I had never been born. The feeling, that feeling, is horrible. Words cannot describe it. Wishing that you have never been born is an absolute nightmare, the blackest of all thoughts. I would rather die than feel that way again. To really wish that you had never been born is also a feeling you will never forget. And a feeling you never want to experience.

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Bob Butler
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Life as it is...

Post by Bob Butler »

We seem to have strayed a bit from the thread’s purpose, but in answer to the despair for ‘life as it is…’

I am a Strauss and Howe progressive. Every four generations, the people take a look at their culture and get rid of its greatest flaws. There is a conservative faction, of course, which desires ‘life as it is’ to continue. In America, the opposing progressive faction that wishes to solve the greatest flaws has triumphed. Thus we got rid of being on the wrong end of colonial imperialism, noble privilege, slavery, and an unregulated economy. We embraced containment, and even made a dent in prejudice.

It makes one look at Cervantes’s complaints and ask how many of the evils he listed exist in modern Spain. Yes, the Agricultural Age was a mess. The Information Age is unquestionably less so. The process of purging these ills and others is incomplete. There is still prejudice, autocratic governments trying to expand using force, religious zealots attempting to use government force to enforce religious doctrine. There is more work yet to do.

But you can’t solve more than a few flaws in any given crisis. If we are not as bad as we were in Cervantes’s time, we are still bad enough. But last crisis’s autocratic conquerers are conquerers no more. Slavery is gone in America, and much lessened elsewhere. From my perspective, patience grasshopper. You solve the problems which are hot, mutter about the ones that are being ignored, and think about the new ideals which should be at the core of the next awakening.

A key idea of Generational Dynamics is to hate those that are different. It helps one out in conquest and oppression. It is well to be aware that this idea is part of many cultures. It is less well to encourage hate and oppression in one’s own culture. Those that are attracted to this site may be enthralled by this idea to the point of pessimism. Hating those who are different is an idea that ought to be crushed eventually. Despair that it is so is understandable. If you are conservative, if you inherently want to cling to the past, if you do not see cultures a changing and growing, one might be tempted to despair.

But the alternative is to identify the problems we are confronting, assume they will be solved, and assume that new values will be adopted to try to make sure these problems do not occur again.

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Bob Butler
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All wise, moral and omnipotent...

Post by Bob Butler »

I have a devout agnostic’s worldview, left over from when I had an argument with God. There is an old atheist perspective, a way of looking at theology. God is allegedly all wise, moral, and omnipotent. However, you can only pick two. Supposedly there is no way to be all three and end up with as many evils as we observe.

Suppose He chooses not to act on his omnipotence. If He is all wise and moral, and it would be immoral to act, would He not act? If He is all wise and moral, and He chooses to grant others freedom to make their own choices, who is to argue?

But people will find reason to declare other groups different, to hate, to oppress, to coerce. If an all wise and moral Being shuns that route, who would argue?

John
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Re: Abortion

Post by John »

Tuesday, December 20, 2022

I heard a former priest on Fox News today talking about generational changes in the priesthood. he said that young men who joined the priesthood in the 1950s intended to be conservative, well those joining in the 1980s tended to be liberal. he said that those joining the priesthood today tend to be conservative.

this view is supported by the story in the last few days about the Catholic priest. Frank pavone who has been kicked out of the priesthood because he's been an outspoken anti-abortion, pro-life proponent.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Internationa ... s-95496672

Cool Breeze
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Cool Breeze »

John wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:11 pm
Tuesday, December 20, 2022

I heard a former priest on Fox News today talking about generational changes in the priesthood. he said that young men who joined the priesthood in the 1950s intended to be conservative, well those joining in the 1980s tended to be liberal. he said that those joining the priesthood today tend to be conservative.

this view is supported by the story in the last few days about the Catholic priest. Frank pavone who has been kicked out of the priesthood because he's been an outspoken anti-abortion, pro-life proponent.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Internationa ... s-95496672
It was funny that when Jorge Bergoglio finally became pope, the joke of asking "Is the Pope catholic?" finally became another inverted joke of quite clearly, no. Pretty darn funny and at the same time, sad.

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Bob Butler
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Ten Commandments

Post by Bob Butler »

This one is not an urgent thing or anything. I just have a flu and am stuck with little to do for a while. But I’ve been thinking on the nature of the Ten Commandments. We have been using them to suggest imperative moral ideas which most cultures share, but is this true? Thus, examining various commandments…

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” This was and remains an exotic Theological point in some cultures. There is a fear that people will worship the art rather than use the art to help shape a prayer, to use an image to help shape a mood. Better safe than sorry, I suppose. But cultures and religions will swing one way or the other on it, or simply not care. It is a theological commandment. As such, governments should not make statues, pictures or cameras illegal unless such governments are blatantly Theocratic or have established a government religion. Is this one which isn’t taken as seriously as others?

“Thou salt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” (Expletive deleted.) This one definitely isn’t taken seriously. I cannot see an attempt to reduce free speech in order to clean up language.

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Lots of monotheistic religions would agree with this one, but again it is a theocratic commandment. Freedom of religion anyone? A secular government or one which has not established an official religion would not enforce it with civil penalties.

“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.” Again, a theocratic commandment, not to be enforced with civil penalties or unless you have established an official religion. While some might disagree, I don’t think football is holy. To me, Sunday is just another day and no one cares.

“Thou shall not kill.” OK. That’s a moral imperative. That would be shared by most cultures independent of religion. Even then there are exceptions for government actions, for war and official executions. But there is something missing. Perhaps it should be “Thou shall not kill sentients.” We eat meat. We poison insects. Many cultures do. Governments should not try to enforce this one without adding that extra word.

“Thou shalt not steal.” That is another near universal moral imperative which could be purely secular but religions properly preach. This one seems to fit as well as any. Many ignore it, but what is new?

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.” Um…. Whoops. Not that I am encouraging adultery, but do we want the government in the bedroom? It is a moral imperative, but is it American? Sure, churches might preach.it. Should it take a place in law other than grounds for divorce? I would say not. I don’t know if we want to chase this one.

“Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” Aside from how we could have avoided much trouble if people hadn’t blatantly lied recently, can you see the government criminalizing free speech? Moral imperative yes. I could see many a church spending a sermon on this one. Crime, likely not, unless you are defaming someone. When speaking under oath in court? It could be purely secular as well as theological. I guess we do have lawsuits if through falsehood one is doing damage to another, but that mechanism is purely secular, quite independent of any religious commandment. Worth digging at perhaps.

“Honor thy father and thy mother.” How do you make this a secular law? Yes, religions would encourage families to stay together and help children to respect their parents. If a child becomes estranged, call the cops? Sue? Do we want government in the family? Is this another one which has faded over the years?

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, wife, slaves, animals, other.” I am typing this on a fancy computer attached to an involved MIDI music studio. I have a flash camera attachment of a type that was used in the early Star Wars movies to make light saber props. I have a miniature of Robin’s The Thinker. None exactly precious, but I could see anyone who shared my interests coveting these things somewhat. As long as he does not violate “Thous shalt not steal,” that would be normal? This seems to be a culture of people coveting stuff. Are we that much more materialistic than the ancient Jews? Can you see the government outlawing longing glances at your neighbor’s fancy car? If I admire a fair but married movie star, should they seek to get me in trouble? I can see coveting stuff being trouble long ago when it was harder to acquire stuff. Today we are expected to try to acquire stuff. America among other things is about people wanting to buy what the factories produce. Is this a bad thing?

So that leaves one commandment which could clearly become secular. Do not steal. Extremely near miss for killing sentients and doing harm with a lie.

Recount?

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Bob Butler
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Ten Commandments II

Post by Bob Butler »

Just expanding on the prior post.

Several commandments I labeled as Theological. Sure, religions could spend many a sermon on them. However, could a secular government which has no official religion write a law to enforce them? Making graven images, keeping holy days, putting other gods before a particular one, and taking names in vain might fit this category. Some minor collisions include keeping the airwaves clean of certain words, and declaring holidays of which only some are religious. Still, there are words and holidays on the lists that are in no way religious.

A second category might be made for the family commandments. Honor thy parents. No adultery. That just begins to cover what a family is. A religion might properly embellish and encourage the commandments to have more healthy families. Does a government play a similar mode? I suggested adultery might be grounds for divorce. Governments might also believe that if a child is born, the parents might be required to take care of it. Still, governments have to intervene when something goes drastically wrong, but don’t interfere with a family if it is more or less working. Government and religion play a different role.

Then there are moral imperatives. Do not kill, steal or lie. A religion might preach all three in general. Still, two of them need to be reworded.

Individuals should not kill sentients. Governments often fight wars and perform executions. Everybody often kills for meat or to get rid of nuisances critters.

I might add governments often fight wars of acquisition. The commandment not to steal ought to apply, but hasn’t.

And one may not lie under oath in court, or lie to defame another, to do harm. Other than that, can anyone think of governments writing laws against lying? Should I ask Ron Santos? Still, religions might preach the issue on general terms rather than those specific cases. There are also white lies, lies told to evade harm rather than cause it.

That leaves coveting. Coveting fancy products is what we do these days. Were the ancient Jews that much different? Worth pondering, but no obvious conclusions.

That yields four theological commandments, two family, three moral imperatives, and coveting.

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