Societal collapse

Read Navigator's book, How To Prepare For The Coming Storms,
for valuable detailed information on what what's coming.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/coming-storms-preparation
Cool Breeze
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

John wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:29 pm
** 22-Jun-2022 World View: The Singularity
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:26 pm
> What's your definition of the "singularity"?
** Artificial Intelligence and the Singularity by 2030
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... 151228.htm
Thank you.

A couple of questions:
Actually, the human mind does not have infinite possibilities. The human mind has many limitations, and can only think about things it knows about, and in ways it knows about. When you figure all the possible combinations of things that a human mind can think about, it's a very huge number, but it's still finite. Super-intelligent robots will be able to think about a much more huge number of things, and will be able to do it faster.
How can a machine programmed by a mind with limitations have infinite (or more) possibilities? This is illogical and is an obvious criticism I've never heard anyone actually answer. Usually the answer will either distract or not actually address the question.

Why wouldn't there be physical/resource limits to "exponential" growth of "AI"? The natural world has limits and we are aware of them, and we are supposedly creating a physical/material thing - so it sounds like this is more a religious idea than anything I've seen (in fact it is, indeed, scientific materialism).

The other funny thing in that very comprehensive and detailed work (good job) is that you mention the "Prime Directive". Not only do we have zero evidence for intelligent life outside of Earth (human persons), now we get to make that life somehow "moral"? But your point with AI is that it is amoral and can't be controlled or stopped by humans. But the life outside of us, if it exists, does control or stop its progress to Singularity 2? This is yet another proof that all of this thinking is quite clearly projecting the specialness of humans and a world of virtues, ideas, and integrity to other beings, thereby proving that humans are the top dog, however broken we may be at the same time. Interesting, it is a clear inference that yes, we are alone in this created cosmos/universe.

John
Posts: 11036
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by John »

** 23-Jun-2022 World View: The Infinite
Cool Breeze wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:26 am
> How can a machine programmed by a mind with limitations have
> infinite (or more) possibilities? This is illogical and is an
> obvious criticism I've never heard anyone actually answer. Usually
> the answer will either distract or not actually address the
> question.

> Why wouldn't there be physical/resource limits to "exponential"
> growth of "AI"? The natural world has limits and we are aware of
> them, and we are supposedly creating a physical/material thing -
> so it sounds like this is more a religious idea than anything I've
> seen (in fact it is, indeed, scientific materialism).

> The other funny thing in that very comprehensive and detailed work
> (good job) is that you mention the "Prime Directive". Not only do
> we have zero evidence for intelligent life outside of Earth (human
> persons), now we get to make that life somehow "moral"? But your
> point with AI is that it is amoral and can't be controlled or
> stopped by humans. But the life outside of us, if it exists, does
> control or stop its progress to Singularity 2? This is yet
> another proof that all of this thinking is quite clearly
> projecting the specialness of humans and a world of virtues,
> ideas, and integrity to other beings, thereby proving that humans
> are the top dog, however broken we may be at the same
> time. Interesting, it is a clear inference that yes, we are alone
> in this created cosmos/universe.
I've certainly never (intentionally) said that computer capabilities
are infinite, nor am I aware of anyone who credibly says so.

We can take a simple example. If we apply Peano's Axioms, then there
are an infinite number of positive integers. And yet, there obviously
must be a limit to high how a human being or a computer can count.

What's the limit to how high a human can count? Well, if a human
lives to age 100, then there are 3x10**9 seconds in his life, and we
can reasonably assume that no human being can ever count 1, 2, 3, ...,
3x10**9.

Computers can presumably count higher than humans. There are 10**80
atoms in the observable universe, so we can reasonably assume that no
computer can ever count as high as 10**80. So there are an infinite
number of positive integers according to Peano's Axioms, but there are
finite limits to how high a human or computer can count in practice.

By the way, one of the most popular books of past decades among
mathematically inclined Boomers was George Gamow's book One, Two,
Three, Infinity. The free PDF is well worth a read.

https://archive.org/details/OneTwoThreeInfinity_158

The purpose of my Singularity essay is to show that the Singularity is
coming, that it is inevitable, and that it can't be prevented.

However, the essay has a larger purpose of showing that, under
reasonable assumptions, not only the Singularity but also the
principles of Generational Dynamics must apply to any intelligent
species on any planet in the universe.

So, for example, genocidal crisis wars must occur on earth because the
population grows faster than food and other resources.

So if we assume that some intelligent species on another planet has a
population that grows exponentially and uses up resources, then that
planet must also have genocidal crisis wars at regular intervals.

On the other hand, we could imagine an omnipotent God creating a
species on a planet somewhere such that whenever a new baby is born,
then the oldest person still alive would automatically drop dead.
This population would not grow exponentially, and so would not satisfy
the assumption that I made above, and so this society might exist
without regular genocidal crisis wars.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

John wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:13 pm
** 23-Jun-2022 World View: The Infinite
Cool Breeze wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:26 am
> How can a machine programmed by a mind with limitations have
> infinite (or more) possibilities? This is illogical and is an
> obvious criticism I've never heard anyone actually answer. Usually
> the answer will either distract or not actually address the
> question.

> Why wouldn't there be physical/resource limits to "exponential"
> growth of "AI"? The natural world has limits and we are aware of
> them, and we are supposedly creating a physical/material thing -
> so it sounds like this is more a religious idea than anything I've
> seen (in fact it is, indeed, scientific materialism).

> The other funny thing in that very comprehensive and detailed work
> (good job) is that you mention the "Prime Directive". Not only do
> we have zero evidence for intelligent life outside of Earth (human
> persons), now we get to make that life somehow "moral"? But your
> point with AI is that it is amoral and can't be controlled or
> stopped by humans. But the life outside of us, if it exists, does
> control or stop its progress to Singularity 2? This is yet
> another proof that all of this thinking is quite clearly
> projecting the specialness of humans and a world of virtues,
> ideas, and integrity to other beings, thereby proving that humans
> are the top dog, however broken we may be at the same
> time. Interesting, it is a clear inference that yes, we are alone
> in this created cosmos/universe.
I've certainly never (intentionally) said that computer capabilities
are infinite, nor am I aware of anyone who credibly says so.

We can take a simple example. If we apply Peano's Axioms, then there
are an infinite number of positive integers. And yet, there obviously
must be a limit to high how a human being or a computer can count.

What's the limit to how high a human can count? Well, if a human
lives to age 100, then there are 3x10**9 seconds in his life, and we
can reasonably assume that no human being can ever count 1, 2, 3, ...,
3x10**9.

Computers can presumably count higher than humans. There are 10**80
atoms in the observable universe, so we can reasonably assume that no
computer can ever count as high as 10**80. So there are an infinite
number of positive integers according to Peano's Axioms, but there are
finite limits to how high a human or computer can count in practice.

By the way, one of the most popular books of past decades among
mathematically inclined Boomers was George Gamow's book One, Two,
Three, Infinity. The free PDF is well worth a read.

https://archive.org/details/OneTwoThreeInfinity_158

The purpose of my Singularity essay is to show that the Singularity is
coming, that it is inevitable, and that it can't be prevented.

However, the essay has a larger purpose of showing that, under
reasonable assumptions, not only the Singularity but also the
principles of Generational Dynamics must apply to any intelligent
species on any planet in the universe.

So, for example, genocidal crisis wars must occur on earth because the
population grows faster than food and other resources.

So if we assume that some intelligent species on another planet has a
population that grows exponentially and uses up resources, then that
planet must also have genocidal crisis wars at regular intervals.

On the other hand, we could imagine an omnipotent God creating a
species on a planet somewhere such that whenever a new baby is born,
then the oldest person still alive would automatically drop dead.
This population would not grow exponentially, and so would not satisfy
the assumption that I made above, and so this society might exist
without regular genocidal crisis wars.
Thanks for the thought provoking answer. My only challenge is that I see far more spiritual elements involved in a lot of these crises, though it does (I admit tend to happen to animals but the key here is that animals can't provide excess resources for themselves, and humans can, but in experiments). So the world has principles that it adheres to (the natural world), as in the experiments that involved mice/rats by Calhoun in 1962 (behavioral sink). As an example: there is plenty of food currently! But the elites, in whatever country, or globally, or both - they disallow the resources, and usually because of their ego/selfishness/power mongering, etc. Yet we are still entering a crisis, but not naturally, it is literally manufactured by humans. While this might have eventually happened, it is telling because we don't wait, there is something else going on that subverts actually a harmonious existence for a lot of people (I would argue the fascination with self and the spiritual influence of dark forces). One could say that tribalism might be a similar extension of the selfishness that I talk about, and lead to the "crisis" wars.

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