Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

An alternate home for the community from the legacy Fourth Turning Forum
User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:05 am
This could be a longer answer, but it is most simply stated by saying "Wealth and spiritual decay/demoralization".

It's a numbers issue largely too. The absolute loss will be enormous for the bigger populations, but it will also be higher percentage wise; that's because when you consider the move down in numbers (already closer to bottom of the barrel survival states population wise) there eventually is a buoying effect that is not there at the crazy high trad/subsistence living paradigm of poorer nations, as they move down from crazy high population levels.
One factor is that primitive societies count on family to take care of the aging out generation. More advanced cultures have retirement plans, mutual funds, stocks and other financial instruments so that it is not necessary to have enough children survive in order to support generations in their old age. India and Africa are closer to the older method.

Another factor is that the advanced cultures are more aware of the environmental limits. It is essential that resource use reduction and recycling be balanced with a reduced population. The desire to reduce population is in part due to that.

I am aware that you are into tribal thinking. You need reasons to disparage and oppress others. Thus, any group you are not part of gets labeled as having spiritual decay and demoralization even if there are other pertinent factors. But your calling yourself Christian without loving your neighbor or charity is somehow not an indication of spiritual decay? If you are going to preach, you had better make yourself ready to live on the City on a Hill.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

thomasglee wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:44 am
It was the same in South Korea until the Olympics came in 1988. It was the '88 Olympics, believe it or not, that saved Korea from another US government-supported despot.
Taiwan was no big winner either after the Revolution.

The US has contained political systems rather than working to get the people what they want. I doubt this is wise.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 2935
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Cool Breeze »

Wrong on every account, and of course you would name a secular jew leftist to boot as your "evidence" with a preposterous theory.

South Africa and every other similarly colonized nation around that area has done the experiment and devolved greatly since colonialism has left.

Again, we've done the experiments, but believe what you want, since you don't want to be open to the truth, I can no longer help you.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Preposterous Values

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:51 pm
Wrong on every account, and of course you would name a secular jew leftist to boot as your "evidence" with a preposterous theory.
You find it preposterous to take care of your parents? You do not see a need to balance resource use against population? I knew you were ignorant, unethical and un Christian, but if you are to comment on serious social structure. you will have to stretch your comprehension a bit and try to understand people unlike yourself. Not all cultures emphasize the sane values as you. Some actually do value family, finances and the environment. I know this seems preposterous to a person such as you, but if you don't strive to understand you won't understand.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 2935
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Cool Breeze »

Nothing that you said in your last post is true, or makes sense at all. I've noticed that thread throughout all of your posts, or 98% of them.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Different Perspectives

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:30 am
Nothing that you said in your last post is true, or makes sense at all. I've noticed that thread throughout all of your posts, or 98% of them.
Really. Some people really do value family, finance and or the environment. You will have to stretch a little bit to understand those unlike yourself.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Betrayal?

Post by Bob Butler »

DaKardii wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:57 pm
Meanwhile, if you want to see an “Afghanistan betrayal,” the war itself was a betrayal of the American people, on multiple levels. It was presented to us as an adequate response to 9/11, while our government continued to coddle the actual perpetrators (Saudi Arabia and its al-Qaeda proxies). Meanwhile, our military had no coherent strategy, other than running around and blowing trillions of dollars on half-assed offensives and failed “nation-building” projects. This went on for nearly 20 years, and it’s about time the farce came to an end.
I do not see the war itself as a betrayal of the intent of the time. It was an outgrowth of September 11. America was angry and was determined to hurt terrorists. The intent was originally to target the Bin Ladin terrorists not to reform Afghanistan. It was futile in that the Bin Ladin organization could retreat into other territories, but attacking something felt good at the time, and the Neo con Bush 43 era Republicans wanted to use September 11 as an excuse to launch a war for oil.

It was also counterproductive. Bin Ladin’s organization gained a predominant position by defeating Russia, and he was becoming less relevant without confronting a major western power. Thus, he deliberately confronted another major western power.

Also, Bin Ladin’s primary objection was to the close alliance between Saudi Arabia and the west. It would be a mistake to portray them as on the same side.

Years later, the meaning of the Afghanistan war had changed. We wanted to keep a corrupt unpopular power in place. Afghanistan was not a major place for training terrorists. The Arab world has shifted from Israel being the major enemy to Arab governments for the Arab people opposing governments that support the west. It was obvious that our maneuvering for oil made us the Great Satan much more than any alleged values for democracy were taken as seriously beneficial. Democracy good, capitalism bad, and capitalism would be considered the more important in the eyes of victims of colonial imperialism. Thus, the ancient religious values of the Taliban were dominant. The primary western values of both communism and capitalism were rejected.

Should we continue to spend much bucks on keeping a corrupt government disliked by the people in place? I can sympathize with those who thought no.

The question to me is whether the Taliban will accept the gift of Afghanistan, or whether they will green light terror attacks such as September 11th. If they want us to leave them alone they had best leave us alone. Whether they will see it that way is questionable.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Not an unraveling

Post by Bob Butler »

FullMoon wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:28 am

Please give your estimation on the speed of the unravelling because it's uncomfortably quick now.
Not an unravelling. While the generations went into a crisis configuration a decade ago, the triggers of Covid and George Floyd’s death came only recently. From there we are into the crisis heart. With the recent Covid surge, many are finally willing to admit the prudence of solving problems, putting into question the strategy of inaction and obstruction. Translating that into assuring voting rights is still in the air. One would expect in the crisis for the stay the same conservative values to fade, but they sure haven’t completed the process yet.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 2935
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Cool Breeze »

FullMoon wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:28 am
What are the feelings of the readers about how close we are to something more life changing than the pandemic? We've had what could be seen as multiple massive events in a short period of time. We're at the end of the era and it's not here yet but really, we can feel it now and it's a part of our daily lives. Just 2-3 years ago it wasn't half this bad. It's happening fast and getting faster.
Please John give your estimation on the speed of the unravelling because it's uncomfortably quick now. Thank you
It is curious to me that the prior poster even bothers here, I think it shows his absolute insanity and stupidity above all. I don't bother with deluded people who want nothing to do with the truth or conclusions based off of facts, evidence or empirical (scientific) reality so I would never waste my time with going to the likes of msnbc, daily kos, whatever comes to mind of leftist decay and dumpster fires. Yet he does. It is telling.

As for the acceleration of things, I'm not quite sure since it is quite subjective, and we have had weird mini wins all the while (Why did the CDC even bother to retreat a bit and allow for a cover to open things?). I see it is a chaotic back and forth to try to force people's hands. Corporations around the country currently are dealing with the sanity and unwillingness to become part of the vaccine and sarscov2 narrative lie, as evidenced by the airlines game theory issue. Now hospital systems are threatening to do the will of the central fearmongers, and are putting out mandates and also seeing the response as (I hope) most nurses will walk out if they do so - when they just admit they don't care about anything regarding exemptions and medical science or religious belief which are supposedly covered under the law.

As Vince says in the Financial forums, I'm in the camp like he is more than anything (war is possible but it will be a side issue) regarding the real crisis which is the sovereign debt crisis and economic crisis coming via hyper- inflation or inflation underpinnings. That's the crisis we are facing because the only thing holding "America" together at this point is the economic thread, which yes, is dangling.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

A New Birth of Freedom

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:01 pm
FullMoon wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:28 am
What are the feelings of the readers about how close we are to something more life changing than the pandemic? We've had what could be seen as multiple massive events in a short period of time. We're at the end of the era and it's not here yet but really, we can feel it now and it's a part of our daily lives. Just 2-3 years ago it wasn't half this bad. It's happening fast and getting faster.
Please John give your estimation on the speed of the unravelling because it's uncomfortably quick now. Thank you
It is curious to me that the prior poster even bothers here, I think it shows his absolute insanity and stupidity above all.
You really ought to become familiar with S&H. The unraveling and crisis are two of their four phases. In the unravelling the conservative faction that wants things to stay the same compromises with and debates with the progressive faction who has some major problem to solve. The crisis heart in the Industrial Age was a war, with the Revolution, the US Civil War and World War II being the American examples. These lasted about five years and resolved the crisis. Afterwards kings, slaves and isolationism faded as part of the culture. This time around the crisis issues that have surfaced have been Covid, racism and to a lesser extent the environment and lack of infrastructure investment.

The concentration here has been on conflicts that haven’t developed. They likely won’t. The elites fear the loss of their factories in a nuclear exchange. The common place proxy insurgent wars give the natives an advantage over big foreign invaders, so there is little profit in conquest. It looks like crises will be resolved during the Information Age by means other than violence, most likely by protest and legislation such as demonstrated by the suffragettes, Gandhi and Martin Luther King. While it is a bit soon to state that the existing pattern will continue among the major powers, that is how history to date has unfolded.

Now you can refuse to acknowledge that the progressive side that wants to remove problems has triumphed in prior crises. The conservatives are forced into a new pattern. You can refuse to acknowledge that cultures change through protest and legislation rather than violence. You can also pretend the sky is green.

But calling the obvious insane and stupid is a bit much. Come up with reasons that the problems will remain unsolved. Come up with a reason why violence would be considered cost effective. Justify prejudice, violence and destruction.

There seems to be a trend here that since conservative thought is failing, that everything must fall apart. That is not the theme of S&H. Their theme is that in crisis America reinvents itself every four score and seven years, that there is periodically a new birth of freedom. They applaud the innovative crisis problem solving. That is not the major theme here. The S&H pattern is decidedly not insane and stupid. The opposite would be, hoping that the great problems of the time would remain unsolved.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests