Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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spottybrowncow
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Re: Abortion as a universal value?

Post by spottybrowncow »

Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:24 pm
This leaves someone who eats meat but tries to restrict abortion on questionable ground.
This is an incredible statement.

spottybrowncow
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Re: Abortion as a universal value?

Post by spottybrowncow »

Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:24 pm
This leaves someone who eats meat but tries to restrict abortion on questionable ground.
Someone who knows how please alert "Libs of TikTok" to post this.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Jan 6 Committee Structure

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jdcpapa wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:54 pm

Disarray over the House Select Committee to Investigate January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol escalated Wednesday as party leaders sparred over who could serve on the investigative body.
This confirms the Republicans decided not to join. If there was no cross, this was the Republican choice.

I did find the bill that created the committee, including the procedure for membership. The Democrats did have the majority to pass the bill in question. Pelosi did control membership. The relevant section...
SECTION 1. ESTABLISHMENT.

There is hereby established the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol (hereinafter referred to as the “Select Committee”).

SEC. 2. COMPOSITION.

(a) Appointment Of Members.—The Speaker shall appoint 13 Members to the Select Committee, 5 of whom shall be appointed after consultation with the minority leader.

(b) Designation Of Chair.—The Speaker shall designate one Member to serve as chair of the Select Committee.

(c) Vacancies.—Any vacancy in the Select Committee shall be filled in the same manner as the original appointment.

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Re: Abortion as a universal value?

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spottybrowncow wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:42 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:24 pm
This leaves someone who eats meat but tries to restrict abortion on questionable ground.
This is an incredible statement.
Care to counter it? Should the government impose one culture's moral opinion on another culture? How does one draw a line of who is sentient other than by language use? Alternatives? We had a naked statement of one culture with no explanation or justification. Explanation or justification?

jdcpapa
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Re: Jan 6 Committee Structure

Post by jdcpapa »

Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:02 am
jdcpapa wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:54 pm

Disarray over the House Select Committee to Investigate January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol escalated Wednesday as party leaders sparred over who could serve on the investigative body.
This confirms the Republicans decided not to join. If there was no cross, this was the Republican choice.
Here is further evidence that the "Republicans decided not to join" the committee to include their justification:

Pelosi, who has final approval of the committee’s members, said in a statement Wednesday that she “must reject the recommendations” of Republican Congressmen Jim Banks, of Indiana, and Jim Jordan, of Ohio, to the investigative team.

Both Jordan and Banks have been adamant supporters of former President Donald Trump, who was impeached for “incitement of insurrection” after his supporters stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6., according the The Hill. McCarthy promptly pushed back against Pelosi’s rejection of two congressmen to the committee, and, in a statement, called the speaker’s actions “an egregious abuse of power.”

Bob Butler wrote: I did find the bill that created the committee, including the procedure for membership. The Democrats did have the majority to pass the bill in question. Pelosi did control membership. The relevant section...
SECTION 1. ESTABLISHMENT.

There is hereby established the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol (hereinafter referred to as the “Select Committee”).

SEC. 2. COMPOSITION.

(a) Appointment Of Members.—The Speaker shall appoint 13 Members to the Select Committee, 5 of whom shall be appointed after consultation with the minority leader.

(b) Designation Of Chair.—The Speaker shall designate one Member to serve as chair of the Select Committee.

(c) Vacancies.—Any vacancy in the Select Committee shall be filled in the same manner as the original appointment.
Thank you for providing the evidence that supports Pelosi's sole appointment authority over the selection process. Pelosi chose to exclude the voice of the Trump voters. Her choice gave Alan Dershowitz, a liberal democrat and legal expert, cause to render the following opinion:

"It's not a real congressional committee," Dershowitz told Wednesday's "Spicer & Co. "As you know, every congressional committee that we remember — even the McCarthy committees had people on the other side who could cross-examine.". "This is not a real committee. This is a kangaroo committee. It only has opponents of Donald Trump and all of his advisers."

spottybrowncow
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Re: Abortion as a universal value?

Post by spottybrowncow »

Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:16 am
spottybrowncow wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:42 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:24 pm
This leaves someone who eats meat but tries to restrict abortion on questionable ground.
This is an incredible statement.
Care to counter it? Should the government impose one culture's moral opinion on another culture? How does one draw a line of who is sentient other than by language use? Alternatives? We had a naked statement of one culture with no explanation or justification. Explanation or justification?
The statement is not worthy of the relative dignity it would be afforded by someone arguing against it.
Most people know that unborn babies are not "meat," the rest are clueless and beyond hope.

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Re: Jan 6 Committee Structure

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jdcpapa wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:57 am
Thank you for providing the evidence that supports Pelosi's sole appointment authority over the selection process. Pelosi chose to exclude the voice of the Trump voters. Her choice gave Alan Dershowitz, a liberal democrat and legal expert, cause to render the following opinion:
I haven't been able to find a story of how the membership went. As I recall it, Liz Chaney and the other Republicans currently on the committee were in the initial nine. After that, the consultation with the minority leader. Five members were nominated. Three were quite acceptable, but two were such Trump followers that they would only be interested in messing up the investigation. Like, in the first impeachment trial, when the Republicans had a chance to cross, they would attack Hunter Biden to the point you would think he was the one being impeached. So, Nancy said three good, can you come up with two more?

No. The Republicans withdrew the three acceptable nominations, instructed the membership not to join, and preferred to hold their own investigation. They certainly have the media outlets to do just that, but their investigation never really materialized. The investigation is one sided as the evidence is one sided.

I sympathize that the Republicans chose not to participate and cross. They chose not to participate, not to balance out the committee. Still, it was their choice.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Abortion as a universal value?

Post by Bob Butler »

spottybrowncow wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:07 am
The statement is not worthy of the relative dignity it would be afforded by someone arguing against it.
Most people know that unborn babies are not "meat," the rest are clueless and beyond hope.
Clueless and beyond hope could be read as they have a different worldview, values, culture. People seldom change their values as I have often commented. One needs a highly emotional event, the complete failure of the values one is moving on from. If one assumes one culture should not impose its values on another, there you go. Covered.

In this case the highly emotional event which would cause the old values to fail is a child who is raped and find herself pregnant. Not quite clueless and beyond hope, but the people who force their culture on her without empathy might be considered clueless and beyond hope.

There are some principles which are nigh on universal. Reviewing them, I kept coming back to the Ten Commandments. Thou shalt not kill. Though shalt not steal. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Such broad principles could be considered central, possession being most points of the law and all that. Even then, there are exceptions when the state does it. The state can declare war and kill by mass production. The state can execute criminals. Suddenly killing sentients isn't a sin anymore?

But abortion is not one of these nigh on universals. It is something you can find in some cultures, and not find in others.

I never though you sufficiently intelligent to defend your position, but surely someone here is?

jdcpapa
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Re: Jan 6 Committee Structure

Post by jdcpapa »

Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:29 am

You obviously haven’t been following the January 6 Committee.
Because:
Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:19 am
The investigation is one sided as the evidence is one sided.
Dershowitz sums it up here: "Due process for thee but not for me isn't justified," Dershowitz continued. "And therefore, I don't think that the Jan. 6 committee's report will have the kind of credibility that the 9/11 commission report, for example, had."

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Bob Butler
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What does one do with conflicting values?

Post by Bob Butler »

On the last few entries I have been going back and forth on a couple of issues, the Jan 6 Committee and abortion. They will stand as examples of two issues where the people involved have different world views. Should one culture try to impose its values on another even when there seems no way the two will agree? Is the committee unbalance due to a Democratic action, or did the Republicans refuse to cooperate? We can keep going back and forth on either, but people seldom change values.

In general, what do you do? One answer is to declare that the other side is clueless and beyond hope. One is certain that the only perspective worthy at all is one’s own. One shows disdain for the other side’s point of view. That, to me, seems inadequate, even if it is sometimes true.

The alternative is to attempt to understand the other guys perspective, and help him understand yours. Values seldom change. You never quite expect to change anyone’s mind. Still, mutual understanding and respect seems desirable somehow.

But I don’t think I’m going to get much further with Jdcpapa or Spottybrowncow.

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