Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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Tom Mazanec
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Tom Mazanec »

Take abortion. A religious fanatic wants to preserve something that might grow into sentience. Pro choice people want to be able to make decisions on their own, and do not see a fetus as sentient, as not to be killed. Both motivations are understandable. The opposite of each group treating the other as 'other' is to understand them but disagree. A liberal operating on the concept of freedom would not let one group impose on the other.
One group must impose on the other. If abortion is legal for nine months the liberal is imposing on the conservative, who believes that almost a million Americans are being murdered each year in the first nine months of their life.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

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Bob Butler
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Abortion

Post by Bob Butler »

Tom Mazanec wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:42 am
Take abortion. A religious fanatic wants to preserve something that might grow into sentience. Pro choice people want to be able to make decisions on their own, and do not see a fetus as sentient, as not to be killed. Both motivations are understandable. The opposite of each group treating the other as 'other' is to understand them but disagree. A liberal operating on the concept of freedom would not let one group impose on the other.
One group must impose on the other. If abortion is legal for nine months the liberal is imposing on the conservative, who believes that almost a million Americans are being murdered each year in the first nine months of their life.
Have you come up with a definition of sentience better than 'able to use language'? Is there a way to define sentience in which a fetus is measurably sentient but your typical cow is not? The two groups making noise on the pro life side are the catholics and evangelicals. It is for them a religious doctrine. Enforcing religious doctrines cannot be the business of the government. The definition of becoming a citizen involves being born in the US. The unborn are not US citizens and should not be treated as such. If the conservatives want the pro life vote at the expense of the woman's vote, I'll take the trade off. In a democracy, the majority opinion of the voters are supposed to count for something.

The abortion question is a difficult ambiguous one, unresolved. You make it seem like it is obvious. It isn't. In this case you go with freedom or the majority vote, not a religious doctrine. As far as I am concerned the key difference is between not killing a sentient and not killing something which might eventually become a sentient. Stating which while pretending it is decisive does not change this.

If you really have to restate your position, kindly take it to the theology / abortion thread? I think the above doesn't contain anything we have not gone over before.

FullMoon
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by FullMoon »

Thank you Bob for your long winded and quickly written replies. No reply as to content is needed because you've adequately demonstrated the qualities of which you've been accused on many occasions. Your upping the level of Leftist extremist hate while accusing GD of it. I'm calling you on that and again for your banishment if it continues.

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Bob Butler
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Disagreement, Hatred and Crisis

Post by Bob Butler »

FullMoon wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:29 pm
Thank you Bob for your long winded and quickly written replies. No reply as to content is needed because you've adequately demonstrated the qualities of which you've been accused on many occasions. Your upping the level of Leftist extremist hate while accusing GD of it. I'm calling you on that and again for your banishment if it continues.
In recent posts, I distinguished between two distinctly different groups of conservatives: call them GOP and MAGA. With the GOP it is hardly hate. There is disagreement on policy sure, but not hate as far as I’m concerned. How much spending on an effective military is necessary for containment? How much domestic spending is appropriate to help the people and provide a safety net? It is possible to disagree but not hate.

Personalities differ. Individuals can hate. I just would not assume that because you hate everybody does. Say, after the last high and awakening the Democrats had been in power too long. There was corruption. Some attempts to spend to help the people had gone so far that Reagan small government was a proper direction to head. But after the long unravelling it has gone too far the other way. I’m more in favor of damping the extremes than saying either extreme is best.

MAGA? Overthrow democracy? Hold insurrections? Lie? Encourage prejudice? Gerrymander? Be far more concerned with power than helping the people? It does become easier to hate. I still don’t think I have gone over the line, but I’m near it. You just have to call out things like prejudice, election denial, criminal behavior and clear them from the culture. That is what a crisis is all about, culling the worst aspects of the culture. Identify the worst problems and fix them.

That don’t have a lot to do with Generational Dynamics save that the persistent hatred of minorities and liberals is an obvious example of the ‘other’. The Memphis bad cops, the California spree killers, the January 6 insurrections are clear examples of hating and using violence against those who are different. In a cockeyed way it is a proof that the theory is accurate.

The opposite of course would be the Christian ‘love thy neighbor’. The early Christian church and the modern liberal politics are an example of the opposite force from hating those that are different. Are you sure you are really on the correct side?

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Bob Butler
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Controlling other cultures

Post by Bob Butler »

In the abortion thread, I recently characterized the issues of prejudice, conquest and abortion as the bad guys trying to impose their culture on their victims. This does simplify things, combining some issues of the crisis into one. This got me thinking. Could you look at the issues of the three prior American crises the same way? Was it always imposing one’s own culture on others?

In the US Revolution, I have had two issues. One was colonial imperialism. The British tried to tell the Americans what manufacturing they were allowed and who they could trade with. Control of one culture by another. The answer? Independence. The other issue was noble privilege, answer equality. Less of a hit, but nobility was a British advantage forced upon Americans.

In the US Civil War I again have two issues. The South imposed slavery on the slaves. The South tried to prevent expansion, both west and into industry. The North needed to grow and industrialize. More non slave states would put the South at a disadvantage. So, again, one can see it as the South attempting to control the Slaves and Northern expansion.

In FDR’s time, there were almost two crisis. In the Great Depression, FDR saw a need for the government to regulate the economy. He saw the amendment process that would allow this as too slow, so he went ahead anyway. There were opponents who wanted the Constitution honored. The match is not so great here. The other issue was fascism. We could not allow the Axis to impose their culture on the lands they would conquer. If the first isn’t a square hit, the latter is.

So it does come down to the great crisis issues are trying to impose one’s culture on others who wish to advance. The side who doesn’t want to be imposed on generally comes out ahead. This might clarify turning theory by allowing you to see which side is striving for a wrong thing, and that the other side is apt to triumph.

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Bob Butler
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Lest I be accused of polluting John's thread

Post by Bob Butler »

FullMoon wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:35 pm
If there is an insurrection against the constitutional republic, it has little connection to the demonstration at the Capitol. The destruction of the Republic is convert and too difficult to understand by simple minds like those who spout Leftist tropes unintelligiblle and fabricated talking points for political gains. Leftists are on the side of censorship, tyranny and collectivization of society. Their allies are Russia and China and their talking points embolden and strengthen their allies.
Oxford Languages wrote:Tyranny: cruel and oppressive government or rule.
I am not in favor of lying. Fox News lied repeatedly - see the Dominion lawsuit - and thus helped to create the division in America which has centered one aspect of this crisis. Yes, fact checking and preventing the spread of lies is essential if this is to be stopped. The current lawsuits may do just that. The laws allowing suits for lies may actually be sufficient, but slow.

Cruel and oppressive? That would be murder by the cops with prejudice as a motive. That would be use of force against peaceful protestors. That would be driving away peaceful protesters for a photo op. How has any leftist government been tyrannical to you?

Yes, most leftist governments will support the general welfare. We at least are supposed to. Says so in the Constitution preamble.

If the leftist ally is Russia and China, how come they are helping arm the Ukraine and Formosa? Putin and Trump were better buddies with each other than either with Biden. China and the US are continuing with some of the benefits of globalization. If you like, you can say bad things about globalization and I may even sympathize. Shipping jobs overseas is one area at least where I will say bad things of the Democrats.

I might admit that some of my comments are unintelligible to you, but it is not my fault that you can’t process them.

There are real and legitimate reasons to criticize left leaning governments. Why make up lies?

And once again, I have requested that you not address me. You have repeatedly violated the forum rules. Please cease.

John
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by John »

Monday, February 20, 2023
Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:06 pm
John wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:37 pm
guest wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:24 pm


Perfectly describes the attack on the
federal courthouse during the Portland
riots.
And several other attacks on state and
federal authorities by the Antifa-BLM
Democrat party fascists.
In the March 2021 Portland riots, the
government was considering violating a
treaty and the protesters were not
exactly peaceful. I figure they
deserved each other. But, yes, there
was violence against a government. The
word 'insurrection' is used in the
definition of 'seditious conspiracy'.
If you had evidence that the violence
was planned in advance, you could go for
it. Would you want the protesters
banned from holding public office?
Would you launch a lawsuit to do this?
Or would you launch a lawsuit to uphold
the treaty? Both?


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ouse-trump
Sat 30 May 2020 23.36 EDT

US park police in riot gear look on as
people protest near the White House
against the death of George Floyd, 30
May 2020. George Floyd This article is
more than 2 years old

George Floyd: protesters clash with
Secret Service as unrest comes to the
White House This article is more than 2
years old

> Police form barricade as hundreds
> line up outside White House Trump
> has inflamed tensions as protests
> rage across US

David Smith in Washington
@smithinamerica Sat 30 May 2020 23.36
EDT Last modified on Sun 31 May 2020
11.26 EDT

The unrest has come to Donald Trump’s
doorstep as protesters clash with the
Secret Service and police outside the
White House for the second successive
day.

Chanting “I can’t breathe”, “Black Lives
Matter” and “Fuck Donald Trump!”,
hundreds of demonstrators on Saturday
circled the White House grounds, which
have come to resemble a fortress more
than at any time in recent memory.

Armored Secret Service, along with
District of Columbia police and park
police, lined up in front of the
protesters, forming a barricade as the
US president returned to the White House
from a trip to Florida. Lafayette
Square, the park in front of the
executive mansion, was sealed off with
steel barriers.

Protest at the White House started on
Friday, when a crowd of hundreds had
gathered in front of the president’s
residence and Trump tweeted that
protesters could have been attacked with
“vicious dogs and ominous weapons”
wielded by the US Secret Service.
Officers of New York police department
confront demonstrators protesting over
the death of George Floyd in the
Brooklyn borough of New York. George
Floyd: protests and unrest coast to
coast as US cities impose curfews Read
more

As a separate issue, we now know for
certain from the Twitter files and from
hunters laptop that the Democrats rigged
the 2020 election by means of hardcore,
illegal, unconstitutional censorship,
without which Trump would have won the
election. this this wouldn't fit the
definition of an insurrection, but it is
an attempted coup and attempted
overthrow of the United States
government.

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Bob Butler
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The Big Lie

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:50 pm
As a separate issue, we now know for certain from the Twitter files and from hunters laptop that the Democrats rigged the 2020 election by means of hardcore, illegal, unconstitutional censorship, without which Trump would have won the election. this this wouldn't fit the definition of an insurrection, but it is an attempted coup and attempted overthrow of the United States government.
This is of course called ‘The Big Lie’ for obvious reasons. It has been rejected repeatedly by the courts, including by Trump appointed judges. As long as you are solidly promoting The Big Lie, there is not much I am likely to do by stating the obvious. If Georgia, New York and the DoJ put Trump behind bars, your locked worldview would likely enough still promote The Big Lie.

jdcpapa
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Re: The Big Lie

Post by jdcpapa »

Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:04 am
John wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:50 pm
As a separate issue, we now know for certain from the Twitter files and from hunters laptop that the Democrats rigged the 2020 election by means of hardcore, illegal, unconstitutional censorship, ..........
Bob Butler wrote:This is of course called ‘The Big Lie’ for obvious reasons.
Please provide a list of the "obvious reasons" and include the supporting evidence.

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Bob Butler
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Re: The Big Lie

Post by Bob Butler »

jdcpapa wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:53 am
Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:04 am
John wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:50 pm
As a separate issue, we now know for certain from the Twitter files and from hunters laptop that the Democrats rigged the 2020 election by means of hardcore, illegal, unconstitutional censorship, ..........
Bob Butler wrote:This is of course called ‘The Big Lie’ for obvious reasons.
Please provide a list of the "obvious reasons" and include the supporting evidence.
The obvious reason is because the Big Lie is a big lie. The supporting evidence was that Barr was unable to provide supporting evidence in late December 2020. When soon after Trump hired an outside agency to find supporting evidence, they couldn't. Also, when Trump filed lawsuits based on the Big Lie, he lost in court. A lot.

You should really keep up with current events.

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