Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
Gordo
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:18 am

Re: Financial topics

Post by Gordo »

43% rally, start of something wonderful or maximum ruin in action?

I continue to feel like we are currently in a generational event (many signs point to this), so although there's a heck of a lot different now than during the last generational crash, I still think the '29-'32 event is useful for comparison. Dividend yields > 6% and single digit normalized P/E ratios on the S&P will point to a generational bottom (and buying opportunity of a lifetime). We were far from that at the March lows, and even further from it now.

Anyway, the first rally after the '29 crash took the DOW from 212 to DOW 297, a rally of 40%:
Image

In 2009, the S&P500 just rallied 43% from low to high, so 3 percentage points more than the first (and biggest) rally during the 1929-1932 generational market crash. And of course, this is what happened after that initial 40% rally off the '29 low:

Image

An epic plunge where that initial bear market rally 1930 peak was not seriously challenged again for the duration of the bear market which bottomed about 85% below that initial rally top.

I know some traders that are looking forward to a pullback so they can get aggressively long. Others are already aggressively long. I probably don't know any more than anyone else, but my suggestion is to protect your wealth instead of being aggressively ANYTHING.

The rally we just had was epic in its own right, bigger than the post '29 crash rally (not to mention we did it in just 3 months). You don't hear all that many people talking about this because it may not seem like a remarkable rally or cause to celebrate considering the heavy losses that preceded it and the fact that we are still far from all time highs.

I know some smart analysts that think the market will top out at MUCH higher levels, later this year. They may be right, I have no idea. Others even think we are in a new bull market, and the worst is all behind. I hope they are right for the sake of the country, but I'm not buyin' it...

Personally I think it's time to be defensive. I am 25% short (the S&P500 and real estate), the rest is in tax free muni bonds, money markets, FDIC insured CDs and a long position in natural gas (UNG) which is still close to its own epic plunge bottom and likely to double some time over the next 8 months or certainly within 2 years at the latest – making it an excellent long term investment and long term inflation hedge). I also own HSGFX in my retirement accounts, and think this fund will outperform the market with less volatility over long time periods. And finally, I am very interested in several arbitrage opportunities which currently exist and can be found here:
http://www.arbitrageview.com/riskarb.htm
Low risk, double digit (annualized) returns are quite possible using pure hedged positions on these arb deals.
Last edited by Gordo on Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

Gordo
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:18 am

Re: Financial topics

Post by Gordo »

Everyone knows unemployment is a lagging indicator right?? Think again...

Hussman: "In typical recessions, unemployment tends to be a lagging indicator, and the employment figures themselves tend to move up and down roughly in concert with the overall economy. In the current downturn, however, the unusually high debt burden and precariousness of mortgages among households creates a dynamic that we don't usually observe. In the current cycle, as Ray Dalio of Bridgewater has correctly (in my view) pointed out, unemployment is likely to be a leading indicator of the economy. In an overleveraged economy, job losses can be expected to be followed by further delinquencies and mortgage foreclosures. While I don't expect that this will cause a violent feedback loop, I do believe that it is glib to assume that the employment markets and the U.S. economy are on a one-way track to improvement. "

malleni
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:34 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by malleni »

Higgenbotham wrote: ...
It feels about like it did when you opened up the forum and one of the early posters (CatfishnCod) was saying the derivatives are no problem because they can just zero each other out and go "poof". Remember how he was quoting all those Bloomberg articles to that effect?

Now we have another poster (Malleni) saying the dollar will just go "poof" and he is quoting Bloomberg articles too. I'm beginning to wonder if CatfishnCod got upset and he is really Malleni in disguise.
Sorry Higgenbotham.
I do not know who is CatfishnCod.
Actually, I do not remember that I read anything from him.

Regarding "quoting Bloomberg articles" - yes I do it ... BUT not only Bloomberg (you know... :D )
Simply there are many of interesting articles and I imagine "a movie" ... Same as you....

As I always saying... Perhaps you are right - and I am wrong...
Who knows?
You are predicting end of August this year?... "Deflation in US, enormous confidence in US dollar from the world investors and its (US dollar) renewed and bigger strength... "
Let us wait a bit and see...
(Anyway, it would be interesting - on which sources you based this kind of future development?)

As I see it now and always with regard - NOT to Bloomberg articles - but to simple story about 17th century goldsmith AND looking on the extremes - I simply can not agree with your "feature movie".
There are too many "pro-American" ("Anglo-Saxon") assumptions (of course extremely wrong from my point of view!) in it, i.e. "superiority of the US system, methods and technologies":
Higgenbotham wrote: ...
They have never been able to run an economy on their own and the only successes they've had in 50 years have been in copying US methods and US technologies. The rise of the rest of the world outside the US is total hogwash!...
I really do not know which kind of sources you are using, but I am pretty sure that "theory" that "every other nation on this Planet will die of hunger - without "superior US technologies and system" - simply is just laughable.
(perhaps you are thinking just about "military technologies" since you are mentioned a war... and that (just perhaps!) might be right, but still the "sources" for your statement will be interesting too...)

StilesBC
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by StilesBC »

Gordo,

Careful with that UNG. It is susceptible to tracking error because of cotango. Futures traders are starting to game these commodity ETFs by screwing around with the front month contract right when they know the ETF will be rolling over their paper.

There is a new oil ETF (USL) that tracks the rolling 12 month out contract. But nothing for natty gas yet.

Higgenbotham
Posts: 7487
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

malleni wrote:
Higgenbotham wrote: I'm beginning to wonder if CatfishnCod got upset and he is really Malleni in disguise.
Sorry Higgenbotham.
I do not know who is CatfishnCod.
Actually, I do not remember that I read anything from him.
That's interesting because I can remember you replying to one or more of CatfishnCod's posts and agreeing. When I find them, I'll link back to them and edit this. I guess it would be reasonable to say that you agreed because you both based at least some opinions on news from Bloomberg and other sources.

edit: Here's a post where you agreed with CatfishnCod: http://generationaldynamics.com/forum/v ... art=10#p97
I think this might be the first post you made on the forum.
malleni wrote:You are predicting end of August this year?... "Deflation in US, enormous confidence in US dollar from the world investors and its (US dollar) renewed and bigger strength... "
Let us wait a bit and see...
(Anyway, it would be interesting - on which sources you based this kind of future development?)
August is a guess. If I had to pin it down to which part of August, I'd guess the middle of August, but if it does happen this way I'm not going to blow my horn here. It would just be a lucky guess.

Really, I'm not saying there will be "enormous confidence in US dollar" but lack of confidence in the Fed and their ability to prop up junk dollars and asset prices that will create a demand for quality dollars by default. This will happen due to the fact that, as assets are sold, they are automatically settled in US dollars.

The sources upon which I base this are historical sources that describe how bubbles have popped in the past. John has quoted Galbraith many times as a source for how the Great Depression played out. Years ago, I had mentioned another source to John entitled, The Emergence of Lincoln which described the (generational) Panic of 1857. Also, I don't want to forget The Fourth Turning by Strauss and Howe where they also predict a great asset devaluation (as has occurred many times during fourth turnings). As we've both pointed out, there are some differences between today's situation and past bubbles. Yet, as of now, this bubble is still unwinding in a similar manner to all the previous bubbles.

News articles are usually (but not always) contrary indicators because they tend to coincide with extremes in mood. Also, governments (think Russia and China and their current panic over the dollar) almost always get it wrong. For example, the European Central Banks unloaded hundreds of tons of gold in the late 1990's at historically low prices just before gold quadrupled in price. As another example, the Chinese piled into long term US bonds last December at the top of the market. Getting back to news articles, at the top of the Nasdaq bubble, the mainstream news sources were calling for Dow 100,000, etc., while there were no mainstream news sources calling for a collapse similar to what we've actually seen. So we have to be careful when interpreting news because news reporters are emotional and tend to follow the herd (which also helps to increase readership as majority opinions are read more often than contrary opinions). If I were to write an article today entitled, "US dollar to Rise" hardly anybody would bother reading it. The editor would probably kill the story and put me on probation or fire me.
malleni wrote:
Higgenbotham wrote: ...
They have never been able to run an economy on their own and the only successes they've had in 50 years have been in copying US methods and US technologies. The rise of the rest of the world outside the US is total hogwash!...
I really do not know which kind of sources you are using, but I am pretty sure that "theory" that "every other nation on this Planet will die of hunger - without "superior US technologies and system" - simply is just laughable.
(perhaps you are thinking just about "military technologies" since you are mentioned a war... and that (just perhaps!) might be right, but still the "sources" for your statement will be interesting too...)
My sources here are, first, sources based on actual KGB files collected by Vasili Mitrokhin during his decades working in the archives of the KGB. Those files describe the operations that were responsible for stealing US technology which encompassed an entire directorate of the KGB (Directorate T). In addition to stealing military technology, the Soviets created extensive civilian operations which stole computer, energy, and food production technologies in a futile attempt to revive their ailing economy. For verification of this information, see approximately pages 215-225 of The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB. For reference to civilian operations see especially p. 219:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9TWUAQ ... ch_s&cad=0

Sources related to Chinese theft of US technology are more numerous and easily located. Just as an example, the San Francisco office of the FBI devotes nearly all of its resources to countering Chinese theft of technology from Silicon Valley.
Last edited by Higgenbotham on Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

aedens
Posts: 4753
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by aedens »

First take was no damn clue. Second take no damn clue. Interesting times we live in.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/143462- ... sb_popular
Samir wrote:Italian Police Ask SEC to Authenticate Seized U.S. Treasuries
Bloomberg wrote:June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Italy’s financial police said they asked the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission to authenticate U.S. government bonds found in the false bottom of a suitcase carried by two Japanese travelers attempting to cross into Switzerland.

The bonds, with a face value of more than $134 billion, are probably forgeries, Colonel Rodolfo Mecarelli of the Guardia di Finanza in Como, Italy, said today. If the notes are genuine, the pair would be the U.S. government’s fourth-biggest creditor, ahead of the U.K. with $128 billion of U.S. debt and just behind Russia, which is owed $138 billion.

The seized notes include 249 securities with a face value of $500 million each and 10 additional bonds with a value of more than $1 billion, the police force said on its Web site. Such high denominations would not have existed in 1934, the purported issue date of the notes, Mecarelli said. Moreover, the "Kennedy" classification of the bonds doesn’t appear to exist, he said.

The bonds were seized in Chiasso, Italy. Mecarelli said he expects a determination from the SEC "within a few days."
This can't be good...

aedens
Posts: 4753
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by aedens »

FYI where not out of sorts by the numbers yet by the numbers without the major bailout factors which skews all relavance
to investment stabilization.
http://www.creditslips.org/creditslips/ ... .html#more
Alot, so much hinges on impending housing resets "sheer volume" and CRE contract defaults as I have read for a few
quarters since there to much to absorb... I seen another larger player to file "implode" and ripples are linked to employment as we already know.

Georgia Gulf has withheld interest payments of $3.6 million on its 2013 notes due June 15. The company, which makes vinyl-based building and home improvement products and has been battered by the housing slump, warned Monday that if it loses access to funding it may be forced to file for bankruptcy protection.
Year Founded 1985
Employees 4,463
2008 Revenues US$2.92B
They may pull it out we will see...


Hussman article was spot and a refreshing read on capital markets drift.
Meanwhile...
http://thetechnicaltakedotcom.blogspot.com/

Also,
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/NanoViric ... .html?.v=2

And then I read this to ruin my day.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/publicat ... /mtpub.pdf
We will see....

Higgenbotham
Posts: 7487
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

aedens wrote:And then I read this to ruin my day.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/publicat ... /mtpub.pdf
We will see....
On page 15, the Federal Reserve Bank of St Louis shows the PE ratio of the S&P 500 to be close to 60. I guess they don't believe the Wall Street Journal either!
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

greghaught
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: sacramento

Re: Financial topics

Post by greghaught »

i guess this qualifies as generational.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/930b13ae-5ac9 ... ck_check=1
The US Securities and Exchange Commission on Tuesday agreed to allow Bernard Madoff to settle civil fraud charges without admitting to any wrong-doing.
makes me want to vomit.

EDITED to ADD: as long as the regulators are "owned" by the industry, you can play all of the semantic lip serrvice games you want with "reform" and it's still meaningless.

jwfid
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:10 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by jwfid »

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding the P/E figure in S&P's spreadsheet. I played around with the formula, and if the as reported quarterly earnings ending 12/31/2008 are excluded, or substituted with a more "normal" figure, then the P/E ratio would come down to a more normal figure (at or under 30) assuming that there are no quarters worse than the current one (earnings wise). My question is: is the current quarter's earnings in the "as reported column" based on GAAP?

P/E from Comstck:
http://www.comstockfunds.com/files/NLPP00000/026b.pdf

Henry Blodget:
http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-bl ... d-output-1

Thanks,

Joe

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