Big wars that ALMOST started

Topics related to current and historical events occurring in various countries and regions
John
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Re: Big wars that ALMOST started

Post by John »

FishbellykanakaDude wrote: > Wars of the Many Plains:

> Central Asia (mostly Russia):
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_c ... ntral_Asia
> 1839: Failed attack on Khiva
> 1847-1853: Syr-Darya line
> 1847-1864: Down the eastern side
> 1864-1868: Kokand and Bukhara subdued
> 1873: The conquest of Khiva
> 1879-1885: Turkmenistan: Geok Tepe, Merv and Panjdeh
> 1872-1895: The eastern mountains

> North America:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars
> Arikara War (1823)
> Osage Indian War (1837)
> Texas–Indian wars (1836–1877)
> Comanche Wars (1836–1877)
> Antelope Hills expedition (1858)
> Comanche Campaign (1867–1875)
> Red River War (1874–1875)
> Buffalo Hunters' War (1876–1877)
> Cayuse War (1847–1855)
> Apache Wars (1849–1924)
> Jicarilla War (1849–1855)
> Chiricahua Wars (1860–1886)
> Tonto War (1871–1875)
> Victorio's War (1879–1880)
> Geronimo's War (1881–1886)
> Post 1887 Apache Wars period (1887–1924)
> Yuma War (1850–1853)
> Ute Wars (1850–1923)
> Battle at Fort Utah (1850)
> Walker War (1853–1854)
> Tintic War (1856)
> Black Hawk War (1865–1872)
> White River War (1879)
> Ute War (1887)
> Bluff War (1914–1915)
> Bluff Skirmish (1921)
> Posey War (1923)
> Sioux Wars (1854–1891)
> First Sioux War (1854-1856)
> Dakota War (1862)
> Colorado War (1863–1865)
> Powder River War (1865)
> Red Cloud's War (1866–1868)
> Great Sioux War (1876–1877)
> Northern Cheyenne Exodus (1878-1879)
> Ghost Dance War (1890–1891)
> Rogue River Wars (1855–1856)
> Yakima War (1855–1858)
> Puget Sound War (1855–1856)
> Coeur d'Alene War (1858)
> Mohave War (1858–1859)
> Navajo Wars (1849–1866)
> Paiute War (1860)
> Yavapai Wars (1861–1875)
> Snake War (1864–1869)
> Hualapai War (1865–1870)
> Modoc War (1872–1873)
> Nez Perce War (1877)
> Bannock War (1878)
> Crow War (1887)
> Bannock Uprising (1895)
> Yaqui Uprising (1896)
> Battle of Sugar Point (1898)
> Crazy Snake Rebellion (1909)
> Last Massacre (1911)
> Battle of Kelley Creek (1911)
> Battle of Bear Valley (1918)

> South America:

> Chile:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupatio ... can%C3%ADa
> Chilean advance to Malleco (1861–62)
> Mapuche response and Chilean coastal advance (1863–68)
> Second Chilean campaign (April 1868 – March 1869)
> Parliaments of Toltén and Ipilco (December 1869 – January 1870)
> Declared war (May 1870 – March 1871)
> Informal truce (low grade war) (1871–1881)
> Chilean advance to Cautín (1881)
> Mapuche uprising of 1881
> Occupation of peripheral areas (1882–83)

> Argentina:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert
> Alsina's campaign (1875-77)
> Roca's campaign (1878-81ish)
> The Final Campaign (1881-83)

> There was a worldwide (technology driven) "consolidation" of
> "flatland" by the "New Nations" during the 19th Century
> (especially the 30's to the 90's).

> These were all GD Crisis wars for the "indigenous". The only
> "Power" (nation) that can "back out" of a war is a tired
> (fatigued) large one. Small "Powers" can't, other than simply
> surrender.

> Is a true GD Crisis war actually "back out"-able (for a large
> power)!?

> Yes. But only if the "anxiety" (of imminent destruction) is
> somehow "disrupted" into some other "non-threatening" emotion.

> What emotions would those be? How does a Nation get
> "shaken/disrupted" into that emotional conversion?

> ..don't know. You guys figure it out... :)

> Aloha nui gangies! <shaka nui loa!>
That's another great list!
FishbellykanakaDude wrote: > These were all GD Crisis wars for the "indigenous". The only
> "Power" (nation) that can "back out" of a war is a tired
> (fatigued) large one. Small "Powers" can't, other than simply
> surrender.
It is definitely not the case that these "plains war" were all crisis
wars for the indigenous people. Quite the opposite, in almost all
cases, they would only be crisis wars for the indigenous people if
they were also crisis wars for the nation -- i.e., a full-scale crisis
civil war.

The war going on in Syria today is an example of what can happen.
It's a civil war, but it's not a crisis civil war. In fact, it's much
more a proxy war today than a civil war.

So you have the Alawite government, and the "indigenous" Sunnis. It's
a brutal civil war, but the behaviors of both the government and the
Sunnis are clearly non-crisis. The Alawite army does not want to
fight, and the same is true of almost all Sunnis.

There would be similar issues in almost all of the "plains wars"
you've listed. Typically, the war would be half-hearted on both
sides, even if a lot of indigenous people are killed. A "generational
crisis war" is not defined by the number of people killed, but by the
behaviors of the people.

FishbellykanakaDude
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:07 pm

Re: Big wars that ALMOST started

Post by FishbellykanakaDude »

John wrote:
FishbellykanakaDude wrote: > Wars of the Many Plains:

... blah blah blah... :)
That's another great list!
FishbellykanakaDude wrote: > These were all GD Crisis wars for the "indigenous". The only
> "Power" (nation) that can "back out" of a war is a tired
> (fatigued) large one. Small "Powers" can't, other than simply
> surrender.
It is definitely not the case that these "plains war" were all crisis
wars for the indigenous people. Quite the opposite, in almost all
cases, they would only be crisis wars for the indigenous people if
they were also crisis wars for the nation -- i.e., a full-scale crisis
civil war.
The "Plains Peoples" have a somewhat different definition of "nation" than our "Modern" nations.

Being highly dispersed, being more "nomadic-ish" or at least less "townsy" (by not creating significant "village" infrastructure), they have a more "family oriented" (clans and bands) meaning for "nation" than the containing (or would-be containing) nation that they exist within.

To wipe out (or "subserviate") the extended family or clan or band is to "destroy the nation", which is certainly a "GD Crisis Situation" for them.
The war going on in Syria today is an example of what can happen.
It's a civil war, but it's not a crisis civil war. In fact, it's much
more a proxy war today than a civil war.

So you have the Alawite government, and the "indigenous" Sunnis. It's
a brutal civil war, but the behaviors of both the government and the
Sunnis are clearly non-crisis. The Alawite army does not want to
fight, and the same is true of almost all Sunnis.

There would be similar issues in almost all of the "plains wars"
you've listed. Typically, the war would be half-hearted on both
sides, even if a lot of indigenous people are killed. A "generational
crisis war" is not defined by the number of people killed, but by the
behaviors of the people.
I do agree with you that the "Plains" wars were not typical of "GD Crisis Wars", in that the "Land Grabber" side was more interested in grabbing land than actual genocide, and the "locals" (most recent indigenous folk) usually had some "escape to" territory to avoid being annihilated, and the MASS populations on both sides were really not interested in fighting the "evil other" (just getting more land and some rest from the hubbub).

What I was really getting at with those long lists of wars was that during that remarkably short time period, all over the planet, there was a "panicky last ditch" rush to grab as much land as possible from the "nomads" so as to "use it better" (to "improve the land").

The new technologies of the time made it a competition between the nations that "had the much better tools" to grab the resources. They all saw that time was short to do it, as competition was stiff and obvious.

One of the strongest "forces" in the coalescing of GD Timelines is certainly technology.

John
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Re: Big wars that ALMOST started

Post by John »

FishbellykanakaDude wrote: > I do agree with you that the "Plains" wars were not typical of "GD
> Crisis Wars", in that the "Land Grabber" side was more interested
> in grabbing land than actual genocide, and the "locals" (most
> recent indigenous folk) usually had some "escape to" territory to
> avoid being annihilated, and the MASS populations on both sides
> were really not interested in fighting the "evil other" (just
> getting more land and some rest from the hubbub).
They're not "GD Crisis Wars" at all, in any sense. You can call
anything you want a crisis, and in fact there are several new crises
in Washington every day. But "Crisis War" is a technical term in
generational theory that's correlated to the attitudes and behaviors
of the population during the war. You've answered your own question.
If the indigenous people stand and fight and risk being annihilated,
then it's likely a crisis war; if they escape to some other territory
to avoid being annihiliated, then it's probably NOT a crisis war, even
though it's a crisis in some other sense.

FishbellykanakaDude
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:07 pm

Re: Big wars that ALMOST started

Post by FishbellykanakaDude »

John wrote:
FishbellykanakaDude wrote: > I do agree with you that the "Plains" wars were not typical of "GD
> Crisis Wars", in that the "Land Grabber" side was more interested
> in grabbing land than actual genocide, and the "locals" (most
> recent indigenous folk) usually had some "escape to" territory to
> avoid being annihilated, and the MASS populations on both sides
> were really not interested in fighting the "evil other" (just
> getting more land and some rest from the hubbub).
They're not "GD Crisis Wars" at all, in any sense. You can call
anything you want a crisis, and in fact there are several new crises
in Washington every day. But "Crisis War" is a technical term in
generational theory that's correlated to the attitudes and behaviors
of the population during the war. You've answered your own question.
If the indigenous people stand and fight and risk being annihilated,
then it's likely a crisis war; if they escape to some other territory
to avoid being annihiliated, then it's probably NOT a crisis war, even
though it's a crisis in some other sense.
You are quite right, of course. And "crisis" is a word that is WAY too easy to toss around these days. :)

And, just to be perfectly crystal clear, I don't see those wars as deserving the term of art "GD Crisis War".

And,.. I think I've run out of things to say along this line, so,.. I'll simply change the subject! :)

Proposition: Wars aren't wars until they start, regardless of their "GD Type", but wars of any type WILL ALWAYS happen eventually in their "GD Type" order, unless "overridden" by a type of war that is more intense due to mismatched timelines of the competitors.

Corollary: "Big" wars that didn't start were never GD Crisis Wars and thus could never BE "Big" wars.

..which basically means that describing a war that never happened as "Big" is a contextual misuse of the term "Big" for dramatic effect. :)

..which I do all the time, as I am a provocateur and drama queen (in the non-sexual way) intent on makin' the poo in the bucket smell just a little bit more than it does already.

Now,.. if you wanna start a discussion about when wars ACTUALLY start, that would be very cool...


Aloha! <chuckle!> <shaka nui!>

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