16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

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John
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16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby John » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:23 pm

16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue


Consequences of an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church

** 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/xct.gd.e180916.htm#e180916




Contents:
Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue
Consequences of an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church


Keys:
Generational Dynamics, Russia, Ukraine, Constantinople,
Russian Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church,
Patriarch Bartholomew I, Patriarch Kirill,
Vladimir Putin, Sergiev Posad, Orthodox Vatican,
Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan,
Estonia, Belarus, Georgia

Guest

Re: 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby Guest » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:28 am

The Albanian Orthodox Church has been independent since it was founded over a hundred years ago. The head of the Albanian Orthodox Church was a Harvard Educated American who also served as Prime Minister in the 1920s. It is currently lead by a Greek cleric (from Greece) and they have always looked East towards Constantinople. The same with the Greek Church. In the Balkans, only the Serbs and Montenegrins look to Russia. The rest follow Constantinople. The Church in Macedonia is divided. This split mirrors a political divide.

Do people really believe that Erdogan would be crazy enough to expel the Patriarch? Secular Turks would fight like tigers to protect him because he is a symbol, an extremely important symbol, of the Turkish Republic's secular existence. Expelling the Patriarch would mean civil war in Turkey. Already the Turkish army is riddled with dissident elements. Turks are divided 50/50.

Albanians and Greeks would also oppose the expulsion of the Patriarch. So would other Balkan nations. Turkey must truly be aware of this.

John
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Re: 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby John » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:56 am

Guest wrote:> The Albanian Orthodox Church has been independent since it was
> founded over a hundred years ago. The head of the Albanian
> Orthodox Church was a Harvard Educated American who also served as
> Prime Minister in the 1920s. It is currently lead by a Greek
> cleric (from Greece) and they have always looked East towards
> Constantinople. The same with the Greek Church. In the Balkans,
> only the Serbs and Montenegrins look to Russia. The rest follow
> Constantinople. The Church in Macedonia is divided. This split
> mirrors a political divide.

> Do people really believe that Erdogan would be crazy enough to
> expel the Patriarch? Secular Turks would fight like tigers to
> protect him because he is a symbol, an extremely important symbol,
> of the Turkish Republic's secular existence. Expelling the
> Patriarch would mean civil war in Turkey. Already the Turkish army
> is riddled with dissident elements. Turks are divided 50/50.

> Albanians and Greeks would also oppose the expulsion of the
> Patriarch. So would other Balkan nations. Turkey must truly be
> aware of this.


According to this article from December:

https://jamestown.org/program/moscow-pa ... ddle-east/

Putin and Kirill are particularly focusing on the Imperial Orthodox
Palestine Society and other Palestinian churches, in order to expand
Russian influence across the Mideast.

Nothing I read suggests any hint that Erdogan might expel the
Patriarch. However, there are many things that Erdogan do that are
short of expulsion.

Guest

Re: 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby Guest » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:39 pm

John wrote:
Guest wrote:> The Albanian Orthodox Church has been independent since it was
> founded over a hundred years ago. The head of the Albanian
> Orthodox Church was a Harvard Educated American who also served as
> Prime Minister in the 1920s. It is currently lead by a Greek
> cleric (from Greece) and they have always looked East towards
> Constantinople. The same with the Greek Church. In the Balkans,
> only the Serbs and Montenegrins look to Russia. The rest follow
> Constantinople. The Church in Macedonia is divided. This split
> mirrors a political divide.

> Do people really believe that Erdogan would be crazy enough to
> expel the Patriarch? Secular Turks would fight like tigers to
> protect him because he is a symbol, an extremely important symbol,
> of the Turkish Republic's secular existence. Expelling the
> Patriarch would mean civil war in Turkey. Already the Turkish army
> is riddled with dissident elements. Turks are divided 50/50.

> Albanians and Greeks would also oppose the expulsion of the
> Patriarch. So would other Balkan nations. Turkey must truly be
> aware of this.


According to this article from December:

https://jamestown.org/program/moscow-pa ... ddle-east/

Putin and Kirill are particularly focusing on the Imperial Orthodox
Palestine Society and other Palestinian churches, in order to expand
Russian influence across the Mideast.

Nothing I read suggests any hint that Erdogan might expel the
Patriarch. However, there are many things that Erdogan do that are
short of expulsion
.


Like what? The Patriarch is already boxed in. The Turkish government already treats him like a parish priest. Bartholomew was born in Turkey. He served in the Turkish army as an officer. He still has friends in the Turkish army (even though they have technically retired). Turks respect the Patriarch for that. There are radical blowhards who make a lot of noise about the Patriarch, but, he is respected in secular quarters. It's difficult to explain.

Erdogan is a corrupt bastard. If he is stupid enough to move against the Patriarch, he will be openly attacking Ataturk's legacy. That would set off a civil war because many people are afraid of Turkey becoming like Iran. Secularists would panic.They would fight. I promise you.

John
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Re: 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby John » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:03 pm

There's always stuff Erdogan could do short of expulsion. He could
order the city to stop collecting garbage outside his office. He
could arrange for noisy construction work in the street. He could
arrange for frequent power outages. He could arrange for people to
protest outside Bartholomew's office. There's no limit to
harrassment.

Guest

Re: 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby Guest » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:59 pm

This schism is interesting, because Russia has historically been the ally of the Greek Orthodox Christians against the Ottoman Turks. Similarly, the Ukrainians have long been allies of convenience with the Turks against the Russians. This latter alliance changed when Turkey's Erdogan allied with Russia's Putin, a move that is hugely controversial in Turkish society.

Will this new alignment last or will popular pressure force these nations into opposition to their historic enemies? Russia and Turkey already may be on the verge of a confrontation near Idlib, Syria.

John
Posts: 8518
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Contact:

Re: 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby John » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:05 pm

Guest wrote:> This schism is interesting, because Russia has historically been
> the ally of the Greek Orthodox Christians against the Ottoman
> Turks. Similarly, the Ukrainians have long been allies of
> convenience with the Turks against the Russians. This latter
> alliance changed when Turkey's Erdogan allied with Russia's Putin,
> a move that is hugely controversial in Turkish society.

> Will this new alignment last or will popular pressure force these
> nations into opposition to their historic enemies? Russia and
> Turkey already may be on the verge of a confrontation near Idlib,
> Syria.


You're absolutely right. That's why Generational Dynamics predicts
that in the next world war, China, Pakistan and the Sunni Muslim
countries will be pitted against the US, India, Russia and Iran.

Guest

Re: 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby Guest » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:30 pm

Guest wrote:This schism is interesting, because Russia has historically been the ally of the Greek Orthodox Christians against the Ottoman Turks. Similarly, the Ukrainians have long been allies of convenience with the Turks against the Russians. This latter alliance changed when Turkey's Erdogan allied with Russia's Putin, a move that is hugely controversial in Turkish society.

Will this new alignment last or will popular pressure force these nations into opposition to their historic enemies? Russia and Turkey already may be on the verge of a confrontation near Idlib, Syria.


A lot of fault lines exist in orthodoxy along ethnic lines. Infighting is common. Everyone engages in alliances of convenience when necessary. I don't think this is about religion, but instead one of ethnicity; which is the standard fault line in Orthodox Christianity.

Guest

Re: 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby Guest » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:17 pm

Erdogan has purged the ranks of the military. Who will oppose him after the failed 'coup' in 2016? How about the Turkish air force general that was anally raped with a bottle in front of other air force personnel? How about the Turkish army generals who are being tortured and starved as I write this. Will they oppose him now? How about the thousands of military officers who are still languishing in prison cells unfit for dogs? No. The Turkish military has been decapitated. The Turkish army is now lead by incompetents loyal only to Erdogan. You expect too much. Truly I say, secular Turkey is dying.

Guest

Re: 16-Sep-18 World View -- Russian Orthodox Church in historic split with Constantinople over Ukraine issue

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:32 pm

Guest wrote:Erdogan has purged the ranks of the military. Who will oppose him after the failed 'coup' in 2016? How about the Turkish air force general that was anally raped with a bottle in front of other air force personnel? How about the Turkish army generals who are being tortured and starved as I write this. Will they oppose him now? How about the thousands of military officers who are still languishing in prison cells unfit for dogs? No. The Turkish military has been decapitated. The Turkish army is now lead by incompetents loyal only to Erdogan. You expect too much. Truly I say, secular Turkey is dying.


Not dying. Dead.

Turkey is a Sunni-Muslim-Totalitarian-Dictatorship without a shred of secularism, democracy, or human rights left.

The struggle for a free Turkey is over and lost.


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