25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Turkey

Discussion of Web Log and Analysis topics from the Generational Dynamics web site.
John
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Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by John »

I'd like to add to the above discussion of Sharia law.

I've been looking at the origins of Sharia law, and the only words I
can use to describe it are "total chaos."

The Koran was codified 20-30 years after Mohammed's death. Some of it
had been written down, but many of the texts were based on the
testimony of one person. The selection and interpretation of texts
was controlled by a politician (Caliph Uthman) whose clan was to
become the Sunnis, and who was in a bitter political and ideological
fight with Ali, the first Shia imam. Although some Muslim scholars
claim that the Koran text is unimpeachable, there is nothing in my
experience that leads me to believe that Uthman didn't filter all the
texts according to his ideology, exclude some texts contrary to his
ideology, and change a word here or there based on his ideology.
Uthman ordered that all other versions of the Koran be destroyed, but
some have survived, and there are different Korans used in some
places. Even when a text is known for sure, there are often several
interpretations of the ancient Arabic that can be adapted to any
current ideology.

And that's the Koran. Now we move on to the sunnah and hadiths --
statements by Mohammed or his companions, respectively, preserved in
the memories of people, and passed on from generation to generation,
not codified until one or more centuries later.

So this is total chaos. Muslim scholars distinguish between
"established sunnah" and others. But even the "established sunnah"
are based on the consensus of people. If you're a political leader,
and you ask for a consensus, and you tell what consensus you expect,
then how many of your subjects are going to disagree with you?

These texts were filtered by many, many, many politicians, during and
after many wars. There is no rational conclusion except that these
texts were chosen, modified, or created by subjects of politicians
with one ideology or another, sometimes during or after a war, to meet
a political objective. So there is nothing in my experience or
research to suggest that these are any more valid than, say, a press
release from a Washingon politician.

Sharia law is based on these sources -- the Koran, the sunnah, and the
hadiths. Any Islamic law-making politician or body of politicians can
easily enact anything at all into Sharia law, just by selecting from
the wealth of these thousands of texts, and by interpreting them in
any way desirable.

I gave one example previously -- Is a headscarf required by Sharia law
or not? In Turkey under Ataturk, a headscarf was illegal. In Turkey
under Erdogan, a headscarf is allowed. In Iran under the Shah, a
headscarf was not required. In Iran under the Ayatollahs, a headscarf
is required. So which of these are Sharia law? The answer is that
all of them are, because Sharia law can be anything that any
politician wants it to be.

So when a jihadist quotes something from the Koran or sunnah or hadith,
he's completely full of crap. Also, it's worth noting that
the Koran forbids suicide.
https://quran.com/4:29 - "And do not kill yourselves"

Here's an interesting sidelight. When the Muslims began governing a
large empire in the early 700s, they borrowed a lot of administrative
practices from their neighbors in Constantinople, the Byzantines (as
well as their other neighbors, the Sasanians). Constantinople was,
of course, the eastern branch of the Roman Empire, and so they had
centuries of experience in administering large empires, so it made
sense to borrow their technique.

So this means that Sharia law and Roman law have huge areas of
overlap. So even if Sharia law were implemented somewhere (highly
unlikely), it may appear mostly similar.



http://www.exploring-islam.com/differen ... adith.html

http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/SocialSciences/ ... rigins.htm

https://quran.com/4:29 - "And do not kill yourselves"

MarvyGuy
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Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by MarvyGuy »

So when a jihadist quotes something from the Koran or sunnah or hadith,
he's completely full of crap. Also, it's worth noting that
the Koran forbids suicide.


John I understood everything but this particular para. was a little confusing and I think it is probably important as regards the current trend of the violence done in the name of Islam and the Western (non Islamic) viewpoint.

I have assumed that their actions are based on certain codex and/or interpretations that allow them the actions they take based on the non humanity of those who reject Islam.

Some Quranic verses I found:
9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior.”

8:17-It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..”

psCargile
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Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by psCargile »

Would not a chaotic Sharia be more dangerous?

MarvyGuy
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Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:33 pm

Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by MarvyGuy »

We knew napping during Dear Leader speeches was not a good idea but neither is slouching...apparently
http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/kim-j ... 1a0869a15c

But as the article notes it is closed and locked down so who really knows what going on.

MarvyGuy
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Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:33 pm

Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by MarvyGuy »

psCargile wrote:Would not a chaotic Sharia be more dangerous?
I am far from any kind of scholar but it seems to allow the believer to do pretty much what they want or perhaps better to state that it allows her Leaders to do pretty much what they want (sanction in the name of Islam).

John
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Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by John »

Maybe using the phrase "full of crap" went too far, but I did have
something in mind.

Reading the history of how the Koran, sunnah and hadiths were
codified, it's clear that the vast majority of the texts were provided
by pious men, some were provided by ideological politicians, and some
were provided by nutcases. Furthermore, even today the texts can be
interpreted by pious men, by politicians, and by nutcases. I'm not
going to venture into the subject of which is which, since that's for
Islamic scholars to do, but only to make the general point that if
someone wants to justify strapping a bomb onto a 10-year-old kid and
send him into a crowded marketplace to blow himself up, then he can
find a nutcase text and nutcase interpretation to support him.

There are many Islamic scholars today who say that the justifications
that al-Qaeda and ISIS are using are completely wrong. The fact that
Islamic scholars say this says to me that the justifications that the
jihadists are using really are full of crap.

Let's take an example from the Bible that's less explosive (both
literally and figuratively).

> Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to
> thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in
> heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that
> are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor
> serve them (Exodus 20:3-5).

This text was used by the iconclasts in the 700s to go into
churches and destroy pictures, statutes, or any other "graven
image" of Jesus, or a saint, or an angel, or anything else.
This was further supported by the story of the Golden Calf
in Exodus 32:1-6.

As I read the text above, there's really no ambiguity. The clear
meaning is that the iconoclasts have it exactly right -- that the
Bible forbids making any pictures or statues or graven images that
might in any way be construed as religious. And yet, we know that
there are Christian scholars who would say that the clear text does
not really mean what it says -- perhaps other texts phrase it
differently or perhaps words like "adore" and "serve" can mean lots of
different things.

So, if someone went into a church today and started destroying icons,
I would call that person a nutcase, and if he quotes the above
Biblical text as justification, I would call him "full of crap."

So that's what I meant when I said that jihadists quoting the Koran to
justify terror acts as being full of crap.

Image

Eastern Orthodox icon 'Christ's Descent into Hades'. Unlike
Muslims, who forbid the depiction of Mohammed, Orthodox Churches are
adorned with many such icons and monuments.


** 20-Jun-16 World View -- Historic Orthodox Christian gathering in Crete exposes sharp divisions
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... tm#e160620

Guest

Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by Guest »

Well, if iconoclasts are wrong because "some scholars" say so, then why can't the iconoclast be right, if "some scholars" say so? Couldn't the Jihadis be right, if some or even a lot of scholars say they are right?

These disagreements brought about the Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists,Anglicans, etc. Validity is up for grabs in religion.

MarvyGuy
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Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:33 pm

Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by MarvyGuy »

Guest wrote:Well, if iconoclasts are wrong because "some scholars" say so, then why can't the iconoclast be right, if "some scholars" say so? Couldn't the Jihadis be right, if some or even a lot of scholars say they are right?
Yes it was my question really. For Islam specifically, how does one define what is "acceptable" vs "unacceptable" in the name of Islam? I suppose I am asking a question there is no answer for just as, for example, Hugenots went around smashing up Catholic statues of the Saints.

My questions really stem from living in EU to which the issue is becoming the rise in violence done against "natives" from some of the refugees. Currently is it is mostly rapes and sexual assaults on women and children and the fear is that a more literal interpretation will lead some to begin killing and eventually implementation of strict Islamic codes - fear is that life will look more like that under the Taliban rather then that of the more secular leadership (so Turkey post WW1 for ex.).

John pretty much called the issue for Europe (attacks) a few years ago as a consequence of the war in Syria but I am not sure if he could have foretold the wave of immigrants crossing into Europe (speaking of 2011). Is really causing issues here in some areas (Calais for ex). I have noticed at lunch no one wants to discuss it and are far more interested in crazy Trump/Hillary US elections. I suppose they just do not want to think of where this all might be going.

I have learned NOT to discuss WWIII - I get crazy looks right away. No one can imagine this life not being like this anymore even though the Vandals came in and changed Roman life forever (for that generation).

But this mental infirmity is now more prevalent and hurtful than ever, to such an extent that even after the truth has been as fully demonstrated as man can prove it to man, they hold for the very truth their own unreasonable fancies, either on account of their great blindness, which prevents them from seeing what is plainly set before them, or on account of their opinionative obstinacy, which prevents them from acknowledging the force of what they do see. St. Augustine City of God bkII

As an aside I like that Icon and thanks for including it. I suppose Iconoclasts would be after me too!

John
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Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by John »

If you want to figure out whether the iconoclasts or the iconophiles
were "right," then you have to ask the Clintonian question, what does
"right" mean?

Let's recall that there are many, many contradictory religions in the
world, and at most one of them can be "right," and possibly none of
them is right. Maybe the only "right" religion is some obscure
branch of Buddhism. So if you were to ask God to give the correct
interpretation of the phrase "graven image," he might say, "I have no
opinion on that subject. Go figure it out for yourselves."

So in the end, the only way to determine the meaning of the word
"right" is by consensus. Indeed, this is specifically the method that
early Islamic scholars used to determine the validity of various
proposed sunnah and hadiths.

In the case of icons, the consensus today, and for well over a
millennium, is clearly on the side of the iconophiles. This means
that anyone going around to churches and smashing icons is clearly
"wrong." So were the Huguenots.

It's also clear that the consensus among Islamic scholars today is
that Sharia law does not permit a jihadist to strap a bomb onto a
ten-year-old boy and send him into a crowded marketplace with innocent
women and children to explode the bomb. The same is true for rape and
sexual assault. So I would call any interpretation that permits such
a act to be clearly "wrong," and I would also say that it's "full of
crap."

MarvyGuy
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Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:33 pm

Re: 25-Aug-16 World View -- North Korea lays land mines to prevent soldiers from defecting / US VP Biden snubbed by Tur

Post by MarvyGuy »

Let's recall that there are many, many contradictory religions in the world, and at most one of them can be "right," and possibly none of
them is right. Maybe the only "right" religion is some obscure branch of Buddhism. So if you were to ask God to give the correct interpretation of the phrase "graven image," he might say, "I have no opinion on that subject. Go figure it out for yourselves."


I highly recommend that you consider reading St Augustin City of God. For God's feeling on graven images I am quite sure he has a rather harsh opinion of it when we consider Ezekiel:
Ch 11
17 “Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.’ 18 “They will return to it and remove all its vile images and detestable idols. 19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts are devoted to their vile images and detestable idols, I will bring down on their own heads what they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

To wit Ezekiel is commanded to tell them to repent of worship of Baal and various gods and to return to the true worship of the God who created them and everything else. Worship the Creator and not the created. I rather enjoy a nicely done Icon as inspired art but I would never bow to it in worship.

And the laws and decrees were stated by Jesus when asked Mt 22:
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Of course there is much more to this but as opposed to Chaos which is not from God the life of Jesus and the salvation he gives is harmonious in the scriptures Luke 24
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

I myself find it quite hopeful reading the early writings of the church including Justin Martyr who laid it out quite clearly to Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Cæsar.

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