27-Sep-15 World View -- After Hajj stampede disaster, Muslims debate the 'Will of Allah'

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John
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27-Sep-15 World View -- After Hajj stampede disaster, Muslims debate the 'Will of Allah'

Post by John »

27-Sep-15 World View -- After Hajj stampede disaster, Muslims debate the 'Will of Allah'

Iran rejects Fatalism, blames Saudi officials for 'crime'

** 27-Sep-15 World View -- After Hajj stampede disaster, Muslims debate the 'Will of Allah'
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... tm#e150927




Contents:
Death toll from Hajj stampede rises to 769, triggers fatalistic explanations
Iran rejects Fatalism, blames Saudi officials for 'crime'
Muslims debate the role of the 'Will of Allah' in human life
Theological contradictions in omnipotence and omniscience vs free will


Keys:
Generational Dynamics, Saudi Arabia, Mecca, Hajj, Mina, stoning the devil,
Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh, Iran, Hassan Rouhani, Ebrahim Raisi,
Daniel Pipes, Fatalism, Voltaire, Pat Robinson, Haiti, Katrina, Lisbon

Evan

Re: 27-Sep-15 World View -- After Hajj stampede disaster, Muslims debate the 'Will of Allah'

Post by Evan »

John,
In Indonesia, rumors are running rampant about the missing 100 plus Indonesians at Hajj that fell off the surface of the earth and cant be found and are suspected to be part of the undeclared dead in Mina. But rumors are also racing about regarding the cause of the crush. The lead rumor that just doesn't go away is that the crush was caused by the entourage of a Saudi Prince who had the roads blocked while he went through and that this blockage is the cause of the stampede. Knowing Saudi royalty this could well be true. But it is also true that even if this is not the cause most people are quite willing to believe it since it fits their perceptions of the behavior of the House of Saud

John
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Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Contact:

Re: 27-Sep-15 World View -- After Hajj stampede disaster, Muslims debate the 'Will of Allah'

Post by John »

Evan wrote: > John, In Indonesia, rumors are running rampant about the missing
> 100 plus Indonesians at Hajj that fell off the surface of the
> earth and cant be found and are suspected to be part of the
> undeclared dead in Mina. But rumors are also racing about
> regarding the cause of the crush. The lead rumor that just
> doesn't go away is that the crush was caused by the entourage of a
> Saudi Prince who had the roads blocked while he went through and
> that this blockage is the cause of the stampede. Knowing Saudi
> royalty this could well be true. But it is also true that even if
> this is not the cause most people are quite willing to believe it
> since it fits their perceptions of the behavior of the House of
> Saud
Saudi officials have firmly denied the claims about the blocked roads.
But you're right that perceptions are going to drive possibly growing
anger over this incident.

The reported figures list 3 Indonesian deaths, not 100.

Deaths reported so far by nationality

Iran: at least 134
Morocco: 87 (media reports)
Cameroon: at least 20
Niger: at least 19
India: 18
Egypt: 14
Pakistan: 11
Chad: 11
Somalia: 8 (media reports)
Senegal: 5
Algeria: 4
Tanzania: 4
Turkey: 4
Indonesia: 3
Kenya: 3
Nigeria: 3
Netherlands: 1
Burundi: 1
Other nationalities (numbers not yet known): Benin

However, this only totals to 350, while it's known that close to 800
were killed, so it's quite possible that 100 Indonesians died.

MarvyGuy
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:33 pm

Re: 27-Sep-15 World View -- After Hajj stampede disaster, Muslims debate the 'Will of Allah'

Post by MarvyGuy »

16 For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again. 17 And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ, are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep: 21 For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. 22 And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:16-22
36 But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone. 37 And as in the days of Noah, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noah entered into the ark, 39 And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:36-39
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? 56 Now the sting of death is sin: and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast and unmoveable; always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51-58
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 25:31-34

John, it does not matter when or how we die as we all will die. That hour is known. We are called to make the most of the time we have been given and on that we will be judged since it is in our control what we do with that time and the decisions we make. Accept Christ or reject him - and for those that accept then to do his work until the Trumpet is sounded and that final Sabbath begins.
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.
Leviticus 23:23-25

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