5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war'

Discussion of Web Log and Analysis topics from the Generational Dynamics web site.
John
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5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war'

Postby John » Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war

Tunisia declares a 'state of war' as Mideast meltdown continues

** 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/xct.gd.e150705.htm#e150705




Contents:
Greeks are deeply divided over Sunday's referendum
Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war
Tunisia declares a 'state of war' as Mideast meltdown continues


Keys:
Generational Dynamics, Greece, Alexis Tsipras, BTCGreece, Bitcoin,
European Central Bank, ECB, National Bank of Greece, Louka Katseli,
Greece, Emergency Liquidity Assistance, ELA,
Al-Jazeera, John Psaropoulos,
Tunisia, Sousse, Beji Caid Essebsi

jmm1184
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Re: 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war

Postby jmm1184 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:07 pm

If WWII and the Greek Civil War of 1944-1949 was a crisis war for Greece, than what was the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922? That war was definitely a crisis war for Turkey, as they committed genocide against Anatolian Greeks and Armenians, the Ottoman Empire was ended, and Turkey fought a war of independence; however I always thought it was also a crisis war for Greece. From some brief reading, the Greeks invaded Turkey and committed atrocities against the Turks living there.

The only other crisis war I can identify for the modern nation of Greece with any certainty is the Greek War of Independence, which began in 1821 and climaxed in 1829.

Also, your mention of Tunisia in today's article reminded me of a long-time question I've had. In a series of slides made about 4 years ago that are on the website, Tunisia (as of about 2011) is listed as being in an unraveling era? What was Tunisia's last crisis war?

Trevor
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Re: 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war

Postby Trevor » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:17 pm

I thought the last crisis war for Greece was the First World war, or at least that's what it says on this website.

John
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Re: 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war

Postby John » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:27 pm

jmm1184 wrote:> If WWII and the Greek Civil War of 1944-1949 was a crisis war for
> Greece, than what was the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922? That war
> was definitely a crisis war for Turkey, as they committed genocide
> against Anatolian Greeks and Armenians, the Ottoman Empire was
> ended, and Turkey fought a war of independence; however I always
> thought it was also a crisis war for Greece. From some brief
> reading, the Greeks invaded Turkey and committed atrocities
> against the Turks living there.

> The only other crisis war I can identify for the modern nation of
> Greece with any certainty is the Greek War of Independence, which
> began in 1821 and climaxed in 1829.

> Also, your mention of Tunisia in today's article reminded me of a
> long-time question I've had. In a series of slides made about 4
> years ago that are on the website, Tunisia (as of about 2011) is
> listed as being in an unraveling era? What was Tunisia's last
> crisis war?


When I have a chance, I'll check out the Greco-Turkish war.

I've never really done a timeline analysis of Greece. The civil war
appears to have been pretty brutal. So if the Greco-Turkish was was a
crisis war for Greece, then the civil war would have been an Awakening
era war, which doesn't seem likely given its brutality. In this case,
it really would have to have been driven by crisis era outsiders, but
there weren't too many of those around in 1946. Also in that case,
perhaps there was a first turning reset. These are all possibilities
that have to be checked out.

As for Tunisia, I concluded in 2011 that the last crisis war was the
Algerian war of independence that ended in 1962. However, figuring
out any of the African countries has always been a nightmare, since
there are few historical records available (in English).

** 24-Jan-11 News -- Police join the protesters in Tunisia -- how this provides lessons for Sri Lanka
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/xct.gd.e110124.htm#e110124

John
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Re: 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war

Postby John » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:36 pm

Trevor wrote:> I thought the last crisis war for Greece was the First World war,
> or at least that's what it says on this website.


That would be the Greco-Turkish war. As I said, more research is
needed.

By the way, everyone, I'm not the only one that can do research and
analysis. Anyone can. All contributions are welcome.

Trevor
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Re: 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war

Postby Trevor » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:46 pm

John wrote:
That would be the Greco-Turkish war. As I said, more research is
needed.

By the way, everyone, I'm not the only one that can do research and
analysis. Anyone can. All contributions are welcome.


I've done a little bit of looking at the war myself, though I may need to brush up on a few things. Bad as their civil war was during 1946, it appeared like more of a political/proxy war than a crisis war. The biggest reason for my conclusion was the massive population disruption during the Greek-Turkish conflict. Greece threw out several hundred thousand Turkish citizens, forcing them to live in Turkey instead; the Turks did the same on an even greater scale. That was a significant percentage of their populations, and many of the refugees died along the way of hunger and disease.

It's possible that I'm wrong, but the Greek-Turkish war appears to be more significant. I will admit, however, that both wars are pretty brutal and are decent candidates.

jmm1184
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Re: 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war

Postby jmm1184 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:36 am

One interesting parallel that struck me was Russia. WWII was incredibly brutal and will be remembered by Russians for centuries, yet it was not a generational crisis war (that was the Russian Revolution). I think the civil war being an awakening era war is likely, given that there was no significant war (judging from my so far scanty research) between their war for independence and the Greco-Turkish War, but its brutality also gives me pause for that.

I've actually been wanting to do a thorough investigation of Greece's timeline, both because I personally find Greece's history fascinating, and also because it provides a rare possibility of having a documented generational timeline going back over 3,000 years! I'll keep y'all posted of my research concerning Greece. In regards to that, if anyone has any leads on significant wars or rebellions during Ottoman rule over Greece that would be greatly appreciated. That period in particular looks tricky, as there were several wars involving Venetians, several rebellions in Greece, an of course the possibility of synchronization with the Ottoman timeline.

John
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Re: 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war

Postby John » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:28 am

jmm1184 wrote:> I've actually been wanting to do a thorough investigation of
> Greece's timeline, both because I personally find Greece's history
> fascinating, and also because it provides a rare possibility of
> having a documented generational timeline going back over 3,000
> years! I'll keep y'all posted of my research concerning
> Greece.


That sounds great, Justin. How about starting a thread about Greece
under International Events, and post your research there as you go
along?

John

Guest

Re: 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:13 am

One thing that has to be remembered about overall Ottoman rule in Greece is this: Greece didn't suffer from Turkish rule, rather a lack of it. The Greek Orothodox Church collected taxes for the Turks, and the Turks have some troops in a few outposts. But, for the most part, the Greeks were left to their own devices. Life was harsh. I don't know how that would affect generational dynamics, if at all.

jmm1184
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Re: 5-Jul-15 World View -- Greece's referendum revives memories of a bloody civil war / Tunisia declares a 'state of war

Postby jmm1184 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:59 am

From the brief overview of the Turkish period in Greece, the Turks definitely neglected Greece, but they still very much ruled it - at least enough to steal their children so they could become soldiers in the ottoman army, as well as to brutally put down any rebellions. Ottoman rule in Greece is remembered as a time of poverty, tyranny, and persecution. As far as it relates to generational dynamics, one should expect crisis war rebellions happening every 60 to 100 years, and there is also the possibility that some of the Venetian wars were crisis wars or that Greece became synchronized with the ottoman timeline.


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