9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'?

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John
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9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'?

Post by John »

9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack


Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right' extremists?

** 9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... tm#e150309




Contents:
Iran's Supreme Leader Khamenei makes public appearance on Sunday
Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack
Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right' extremists?


Keys:
Generational Dynamics, Iran, Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei,
Mali, Bamako, La Terrasse, Al Mourabitoun, The Sentinels,
Al-Qaeda on the Islamic Maghreb, AQIM, Moktar Belmoktar,
Fawaz Gerges, Nigeria, Boko Haram,
Islamic State / of Iraq and Syria/Sham/the Levant, IS, ISIS, ISIL, Daesh,
French Revolution, Reign of Terror

MarvyGuy

Re: 9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'

Post by MarvyGuy »

So another wonderful day here in Greece by the med (and with my pretty blue drachma of course!). For me right/left for religion is western language used most often to separate fundamentalists and moderates. For simplicity I eschew the term liberal since that term is overused and misapplied today.
To a moderate Christian gay marriage (or divorce, abortion, etc) would be considered acceptable due to a modern interpretation of scripture (or completely ignored) but to the fundamentalist it would never be acceptable due to a strict interpretation. For me ISIL/ISIS is a fundamentalist group based on their strict interpretation of the Koran and holy writings with additional commentary of their holy persons (fatwa I think is their term for it). A moderate would argue exactly the opposite based on their interpretation. To me these views are not that different from what you see in the Christian world today and the language for the west often in terms of left/right. So for the moderate you have far right/radical right/right wing extremism and for the Fundamentalist you have the same but replace “right” with “left”.
My example in a previous post of Morocco is based on a government and culture with a fairly moderate view of Islam but which could change at any moment to a fundamentalist version of Islam. We have seen this in the past 50 years in Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Libya etc where secularist governments are overthrown by fundamentalist ones and life changes pretty quickly for the moderates. Look at photos from Kabul Afghanistan in the 1960’s for example.
If I understand my US history correct early America was fundamentalist in its Christian views that are rapidly changing to moderate ones that would probably shock your puritan ancestors. I see Islam as going in the opposite direction today towards fundamentalism (okay not in all cases but seems to be a trend post Arab Spring). Today you have Fundamentalist groups tearing down ancient sites to eliminate idolatry. You can see the same cycle in Jewish and Christian history as well but seems to always be Fundamentalist led. Can this cycle be based on who “wins” during the awakening cycle? From US history there is a clear break in the 1960’s with a moving towards religious moderation and often the question is raised today who will “win” in Iran (for instance). So the religious struggle for right/left is clearly seen in the generation cycle having I think important cultural effects afterwards for many generations.
What concerns me is that moderates are not tolerated in a fundamentalist led Islamic rule (so no Bill of Rights for free speech for instance). What happens to my blue drachma (who does not like the burka) if ever Greece is ruled by an Islamic majority who happens to turn fundamentalist? For sure they cannot be elected here as a fundamentalist so they will go moderate until they are in power – I hope not but it is a problem for Europe down the road based on birth rates and immigration. Will this lead to another war of religion? I don’t know, perhaps.
A future post I would like to talk about fundamentalists and moderates and their view of evil since this was touched on in previous posts but I do not think well understood since it means something different to the “two” groups.

John
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Re: 9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'

Post by John »

One might argue that ISIS and Boko Haram are "fundamentalist" or
"conservative" in their religion, but fascism and right-wing applies
to government, not to religious beliefs.

Boko Haram cannot be called a fascist state because it's not a state.
If the government of Nigeria were doing what BK has been doing, then
Nigeria would be a right-wing extremist fascist state.

But Boko Haram is an anti-government revolutionary movement conducting
a "Reign of Terror." As I said, I don't think a left-right
designation makes any sense at all, but if you had to pick one, it
would have to be left-wing.

And as I've written in another thread, I disagree that ISIS is
following any religion at all, since they're killing masses of devout
Muslims. ISIS and BK are nothing but cheap thugs using religion as an
excuse to kill people in their way.

gfmucci

Re: 9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'

Post by gfmucci »

My understanding:

In Europe and Middle East, "right" is extreme orthodox religious or super nationalistic, top down authoritarian. Left is people power (illusionary?), often Communist. But this, too, can mean top down authoritarian.

In the US, "right" is smaller, less government, more individual responsibility, and adherence to tradition, especially allegiance to the Constitution. "Left" is bigger government, more government responsibility and regulation, and "progressive" (altered) constitutional interpretation.

Am I close to an accurate understanding?

MarvyGuy

Re: 9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'

Post by MarvyGuy »

John my blue drachma has been chastising me all yesterday afternoon (was hard to enjoy my espresso but she is still pretty even when angry!) and I apologize for adding any comments to left/right since you are correct it mixes up government and religion in any discussion which was not my main point.

As for ISIS/ISIL I think you may have proved a point I was going to make later on how Fundamentalists and Moderates in religion view what they call as evil. In short for me I think a moderate would look at ISIS/ISIL and see them as evil not corresponding to Koran, holy writings and their holy men who interpret these. I think if a head guy from ISIS/ISIL were to respond they would give you “chapter and verse” on why they are in line with their interpretation and why it is the Moderate who is evil (apostate). I will abstain going into why they would view another Fundamentalist group as evil which could create the “muddy water” for this reply.

This could then be a circular argument as to who is “correct” the Moderate or the Fundamentalist but my only goal is to try and find motives (not to argue correctness since I am in Greece and do not thankfully study the Koran as my pretty blue drachma does not like the burka). That the ISIS/ISIL leadership may not “believe” in fact what they are telling their followers I don’t know. My guess though is you are correct and they use it as cover to do what they want. I think some followers believe what they are being told, others enjoy the rape/pillage/plunder and some cannot escape now for fear of death (will not try to estimate percentages as I have NO idea!).

Once this all hits the crisis point I suppose belief is no longer primary motivator and survival is the main thing keeping them in the “fight”.

MarvyGuy

Re: 9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'

Post by MarvyGuy »

So in my new role as official paid Greek troll I shall say that life is good here in Greece by the med and my pretty blue drachma is enjoying some sun and not having to wear a burka in public is good for her tan.
So the nature of evil has been brought up in previous posts (Islam is evil vs Islam is not evil). I think the arguments can be better framed as to whether one is look from a moderate or fundamentalist point of view. I am not trying to get into long winded essays on “evil” of which much has been written through the ages by very intelligent and devout persons but rather just a personal thought to how the 2 groups could perceiving it differently.
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo called evil the absence of good. It seems to be a “good” start point then since your definition of good must be based on something. I think for the fundamentalist it is based on strict interpretation of their holy writings. For the moderate I am not sure since technically a moderate is seen as departing from strict interpretations and thus follow some type of general agreement as to what “good” is based on current norms.
An example - for the fundamentalist Christian gay marriage is not marriage, it is the very example of sexual sin and antithesis to the holy picture of the union of Christ and his church and any attempt to define it as any less than between man and woman is evil (so devoid of good). For the moderate they today seem to see this position as evil (so too rigid) and feel that based on their understanding of Christ love for all persons he would not have an issue with this so long as the couple involved love one another. The moderate position modifies the fundamental view of marriage and now it can be defined based on societal norms.
I would like to say then that moderation is evil from a fundamentalist point of view because it attacks the nature of the religion at its core precepts. For moderates fundamentalism can be viewed as evil since it is “extreme” with only black/white and no allowance for grey areas. You will see therefore fundamentalists using the language of apostasy and moderates talking about extremists.
So for purposes of this particular exercise “evil” can then be defined as a deviation from the norms of religious texts, dogma, creeds and laws which would allow, on a long enough timeline, the essence of that religion to change in a fundamental way perhaps forever. For the fundamentalist what was true a hundred even thousand of years ago has not changed today. “Truth” is fixed, “good” is fixed for the fundamentalist.
Without going into what leadership really believes I would argue that a group like ISIS/ISIL takes position that anything viewed as a moderation of what they perceive to be fundamental to Islam is evil and must be stopped or eradicated. I think you see this between Sunni/Shia as to who has the pure form of Islam, or if you will, Islam at its most pure and fundamental based on Koran, holy writings and associated holy dictates/interpretations.

So why would fundamentalist Christianity view Islam (moderate or fundamental) as evil? Firstly it views all people as fundamentally evil in nature (through original sin) requiring the sacrifice of Christ to cover their sins and give then right standing with God (otherwise Christ is not needed at all and I can be good in myself by my good deeds as decided by peer groups). Islam is a completely different religion saying completely different things about Christ. It has a different system of scriptures in addition to some of the biblical canon. I cannot therefore see how a fundamentalist Christian could ever view Islam as not being evil since it is a system that draws people away from the basic tenets of Christ and his teachings. I think you have the same effect also between fundamentalist Islam and Christianity.

Today you have Fundamentalist Islam attacking moderate Islam and also attacking itself. The concern for the fundamentalist Christian will be when this is all sorted out (more or less) what if the victor then turns on non Islamic “systems” what will happen? The worry is that this may be “me” next. When you asked NoOneImprtant is he saw 1.6B Muslims as evil then from strict Christian doctrine the response must be yes as they have not embraced Christ as Gods son and their savior for remission of sins. NoOne will not go and burn down their mosques, or burn them in cages or cut their throats like animals but he is I suspect worried what happens when western democracies change into moderate Muslim led rule and then finally fundamentalist led rule. I think this view is rather shocking to moderates but then this is a problem with moderates having no solid definition of “good” they will never be able to define accurately “evil”. So I stand with NoOneImportant since he has a right to his opinion whether anyone like it or not and Blue Drachma and I tend to agree with him far more than not.

psCargile
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Re: 9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'

Post by psCargile »

Well said, Marv.

Here's how I've come to define "good" and "evil": behaviors and acts that are beneficial to the survival of the indiviual, the family, and the tribe/society are good, while those behaivors and acts that are detrimental to survival are "evil". Under these definitions, killing a member of your society is evil (murder), but killing a member of another society (war) is not, because to do so is to remove the competition.

John
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Re: 9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'

Post by John »

MarvyGuy wrote: > When you asked NoOneImportant is he saw 1.6B Muslims as evil then
> from strict Christian doctrine the response must be yes as they
> have not embraced Christ as Gods son and their savior for
> remission of sins.
This is an interesting subject, because the same is true for Jews,
Buddhists, Hindus, etc.

gerald
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: 9-Mar-15 World View -- Mali's capital city Bamako in shock after terror attack /Are ISIS and Boko Haram 'far right'

Post by gerald »

John wrote:
MarvyGuy wrote: > When you asked NoOneImportant is he saw 1.6B Muslims as evil then
> from strict Christian doctrine the response must be yes as they
> have not embraced Christ as Gods son and their savior for
> remission of sins.
This is an interesting subject, because the same is true for Jews,
Buddhists, Hindus, etc.
The solution to these "religious" issues is to prove and demonstrate that organized religions are false.

from the 1960's

The Brookings Institution Gave NASA Advice About Extraterrestrial Life http://io9.com/the-brookings-institutio ... 1575484410

"Whether earthmen would be inspired to all-out space efforts by such a discovery is a moot question. Anthropological files contain many examples of societies, sure of their place in the universe, which have disintegrated when they have had to associate with previously unfamiliar societies espousing different ideas and different life ways; others that survived such an experience usually did so by paying the price of changes in values and attitudes and behavior."

Time for a change? or is the "sport" of power and killing too desirous to stop?

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