18-Mar-14 World View - Does Iran's anti-nuclear fatwa exist?

[John]

18-Mar-14 World View -- Does Iran's anti-nuclear fatwa really exist, as claimed?

U.S. special forces capture pirate Libyan oil tanker in Mediterranean

** 18-Mar-14 World View -- Does Iran's anti-nuclear fatwa really exist, as claimed?
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... tm#e140318



Contents:
Russia's Putin declares Crimea to be a 'sovereign and independent state'
Does Iran's anti-nuclear fatwa really exist, as claimed?
U.S. special forces capture pirate Libyan oil tanker in Mediterranean


Keys:
Generational Dynamics, Russia, Vladimir Putin, Ukraine, Crimea,
Georgia, Abkhazia, South Osettia,
Iran, Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei,
Libya, Morning Glory, Cyrenaica, Barqa, Cyprus

[NoOneImportant]

One of life's great maxims is: past performance is future performance. To this end Putin will continue to invade his neighbors, until stopped; China will continue to seize territories - currently islands, and fishing areas but not necessarily limited to those, a fact that accounts for India's being the world's largest importer and purchaser of armaments - until China is stopped; and Obama's continued pathological lying will continue on without end. I would note that anyone who believes in a secret unpublished agreement - the Iranian "agreement" - where both sides are know liars, and each side purports differing content, is a fool. Secret agreements do not exist in a free society.

Regarding Russia, China, and Obama, believe nothing that any of the three of them may say; for everything voiced by all three of them is calculated to deceive. A past post at this site noted that Obama can hardly be held responsible for what is happening in both the east, and the west. Such a position is, at best naive - and is probably held by someone seeking to absolve himself of having voted for Obama.

Raw military strength is required to deter evil; but the prime ingredient, even before military strength, in the deterrence of evil is first and foremost character, and a willingness to first prepare, then to act against said evil. Obama has, for going on 6 years now, sent the unequivocal message of abject weakness to all the world - to friend, and foe alike. When Obama is called regarding his gross stupidity, and bumbling incompetence he routinely, and without hesitation, immediately reverts to deceit, deception, and his personal ignorance, that is: "I didn't know." In WWII Nazi German it was know as: "... if der Fuhrer only knew." As though any of the three of these will change the reality of fact, and provide him absolution for the responsibility for the position he holds. God damn him, for he, and he alone is responsible for a decimated of the American military - America's nuclear position -; he alone is responsible for the total absence of any American resolve, what so ever, to confront evil in our world; he alone is directly and personally responsible for an abject lack of American integrity, and the absence of the willingness to confront evil wherever it is to be found in our world. It has been these uniquely American things, things that are now gone, that have given us one of the longest periods of sustained peacetime in the last 1000 years. And now it is gone, frittered away by a Chicago thug community organizer; and gone for the price of a cell phone, gone for freebees, gone for what's in it for me - God damn him, and those who put him where he is.

[Anon]

Yes, IRNA reported that Khamenei released that fatwa, here is the link "from IRNA":

http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=302258

Also, here is the US State Dept release of the information which was picked up by the juancole site:

http://www.juancole.com/2005/08/irna-ca ... apons.html

Admitted, this issuance could be a lie and no such fatwa was ever actually released, they could have provided junk to the IAEA and to the US State Dept, however Khamenei has referenced it several times in speeches as have others. It would be difficult to conceive of a lie of this size promulgated across Iran and the outside world for a decade now, the level of outrage when such was detected would certainly be a huge blow to Iran.

Now, I did NOT say that Khamemei could not retract it, I did NOT say that his successor could not retract it and I did NOT say that such a fatwa would have any legal force inside the Iranian government. I simply say that evidence that it exists is rather huge, and Memri is not the most accurate site when reporting on MidEast affairs.

[John]

> Yes, IRNA reported that Khamenei released that fatwa, here is the
> link "from IRNA":

> http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=302258

> Also, here is the US State Dept release of the information which
> was picked up by the juancole site:

> http://www.juancole.com/2005/08/irna-ca ... apons.html

> Admitted, this issuance could be a lie and no such fatwa was ever
> actually released, they could have provided junk to the IAEA and
> to the US State Dept, however Khamenei has referenced it several
> times in speeches as have others. It would be difficult to
> conceive of a lie of this size promulgated across Iran and the
> outside world for a decade now, the level of outrage when such was
> detected would certainly be a huge blow to Iran.

> Now, I did NOT say that Khamemei could not retract it, I did NOT
> say that his successor could not retract it and I did NOT say that
> such a fatwa would have any legal force inside the Iranian
> government. I simply say that evidence that it exists is rather
> huge, and Memri is not the most accurate site when reporting on
> MidEast affairs.

You may well be right. But take a look at the Memri link provided
with the article.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/7886.htm

This article said that it never existed, not that it was retracted.
The fact that IRNA published the full text in 2005 seems to indicate
that the Memri article is wrong.

[John]

> This article said that it never existed, not that it was
> retracted. The fact that IRNA published the full text in 2005
> seems to indicate that the Memri article is wrong.

I've reread the IRNA article, and it doesn't contradict the Memri
article at all. It does NOT publish the full text of the fatwa. The
IRNA article simply quotes a "statement" by some third party who
refers to Khamenei in the third person. Thus, we have this text:


>

The full text of the statement is as follows:

> "Madam chair, colleagues,

> "We meet when the world is remembering the atomic bombings of the
> civilians in Hiroshima (Aug 6) and Nagasaki (Aug 9) sixty years
> ago.

> ...

> "The Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali
> Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and
> use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that the
> Islamic Republic of Iran shall never acquire these
> weapons. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who took office just
> recently, in his inaugural address reiterated that his government
> is against weapons of mass destruction and will only pursue
> nuclear activities in the peaceful domain.

A careful reading shows that this is a political comment (possibly
even a rant) by someone who is not Khamenei and is not Ahmadinejad.
It does not publish the actual text of the fatwa, but only refers to
it. So, this is one of those places that the Memri article referred
to: "The trouble is that no one has actually seen the fatwa, although
many people comment on it."

So apparently no such fatwa exists.

John

[Anon]

I've searched the matter pretty throughly now, and this is what I've found.

This doubt on the matter has been cast as this was an oral fatwa, stated/released on October 25, 2003. It has been accepted as genuine for a number of reasons, it got an IRNA news release and has been referenced by the presidents of Iran as well as the leaders of other muslim majority countries, Erdogan has brought it up in discussions with US Secretary of State for example.

However, if you are looking for a written original, forget it, there isn't one.

It is however, compatible with a number of other similar fatwas about WMD's that have been issued by various muslim bodies and authorities. These statements boils down to the idea that any weapon that kills indiscriminately is against their beliefs. It is worth noting that despite obviously having the capability to build gas weapons, Iran did not use them during the war with Iraq. Any insecticide factory can be converted to produce gas in a fairly short time, the chemical reactions are nearly identical, most insecticides are based on WWII and WWI poison gas chemistry.

Nobody cast any doubt on this fatwa as existing until 2012, when AIPAC decided this would be a means of attacking the Iranian accord on nuclear production. So they've pushed this. You can take that for what it is worth.

[John]

This situation reminds me of the situation with Ahmadinejad and his
threat to "push Israel into the sea." That comment was widely
reported, and I quoted it a couple of times. People would write to me
and say that Ahmadinejad never really said that. What he said was
that Israel would turn the page, or something like that. Anyway, my
reaction was that it was up to Ahmadinejad to clarify what he meant.
Did he want Israel to be pushed into the sea, or not? He never
clarified it.

Now this Khamanei fatwa not only looks similar, but appears to be a
total scam. What looks to be the case is as follows: Khamanei never
issued the fatwa, but got Irna to publish a report saying that he HAD
issued the fatwa. So he has the best of both worlds. He's got Obama
and everyone else quoting his non-existent fatwa, but when crunch time
comes, he'll say, "Oh no, there was no fatwa. Irna got it wrong." As
in the case of Ahmadinejad, he could clarify things today if he wanted
to, but he doesn't want to because he's scamming Obama, the West, and
everyone else, and getting away with it.