Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

[Bob Butler]

It's funny that Bobby B will never admit this either. I find it amusing, and an effort in critical thinking, to consider the following, from an (in)famous person of the 1960s and 1970s, who saw this already happening very clearly, more than 50 years ago:

I have acknowledged this, and quite recently. I just don't believe the model minority motivation is shared by most Democrats. For instance, whites are not minorities, Asians would not be so motivated, and most blacks aren't actively believing or acting on it.

Yes, tribal thinkers are apt to demonize others. It is much of what they do. Your article is a fine example of how conservatives demonize liberals. That doesn't mean it accurately reflects my beliefs, or that I would post it on my thread as clarifying liberal thought. Consider it an example of xenophobia in action.

[Bob Butler]

Every one of your disadvantaged, identity driven groups (by your marxist agenda) was given civilization and freedom by the people you claim have "old values". Not the other way around. You are delusional. "Conservatives" attempt to conserve virtue and civilization, not promote degeneracy and division, like you do. Cut the bullshit.

From one race’s perspectives, the blacks being driven into slave ships were being given freedom by those with the old values? Can you comprehend the slave’s lack of gratitude?

One of my things is the arrow of progress. I often name the elements as equality, democracy and human rights. Industrialization is also an element, as is high church and low. The Reformation, Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution focused on different parts of human culture. Yet, if one element was central in at one time or another, the others grew and changed too.

Let’s look at the various crises in the Anglo American sequence.

The English Civil War was between the rural royal high church faction and the urban, parliament, low church. There was an anti autocratic pro democracy element. There was an element of changing the power from rural landowning towards industrialization. There was something of a dent in the class structure of the Agricultural Age.

The US Revolution had two elements. One was against autocracy and for democracy. Taxation without representation is tyranny and all that. Beneath the surface was an anti Colonial Imperialism element. The American elites didn’t care for the colonies to be a source of raw materials and captive market. They wanted to trade freely and industrialize.

The US Civil War had a similar double set of motivations. The abolitionists wanted more equality. There was also a struggle between the agricultural elites and industrial elites. In order for the Industrial Revolution to progress, the federal government had to shake the land owner’s reluctance to expand.

In FDR’s times the crisis was doubled. The government had to regulate the economy. The Gilded Age included a number of depressions which had to be stopped. World War II was a fight mostly against autocracy, for democracy. (I know. Russia doesn’t fit that characterization.)

That is your baseline. That is your arrow of progress. Try to characterize the crises differently? The major issue of each time is confronted. It is resolved in favor of democracy, equality, human rights and industrialization. The opposite side fighting to continue existing power structures are fighting for autocracy, advantage for some supposedly superior class, oppression and perhaps for continued agricultural dominance.

Now this doesn’t imply that the current Republicans will try to bring back kings and slaves. After each crisis, the old values fade. Some battles are accepted as lost. But the Robber Barons progressively trying to enable the Industrial Revolution who were a progressive force for advance in the US Civil War become an oppressive elite trying to exploit the workers right quick. The next conflict is going to be different.

The current crisis? Trump is a wannabe autocrat? Republicans are trying to suppress the vote, disenfranchise minorities? The elites are all for cutting taxes to the rich, weakening unions, shipping jobs abroad where the labor is cheaper and the environment not protected? Equality against an elite few in charge. Democracy against autocracy. Human rights against oppression.

Now I don’t say the conservatives won’t try to outline a different perspective. However, their efforts to me are like pouring perfume on a pig. The stink changes, but it is still a stink.

There are parts of the Anglo American culture that are worth keeping, even in a crisis. Parts of conservative thought are honorable. Racism and elitism are not among those parts. Government can become too big and too corrupt. Leave anyone in charge too long and they become too accustomed to the way things have become. If you leave problems unsolved, the become worse until they force a crisis.

But attempt to characterize the crises differently. Attempt to pervert the arrow of progress. The greatest problems facing the culture are corrected. Try to say the progressive force hasn’t won repeatedly by favoring democracy, equality and human rights. Try to say the conservatives are going to win by restricting the vote, favoring the elites, and oppressing people.

[Bob Butler]

Please respond: Are you or are you not a paid troll?

Of course not. Why would I be a "paid troll"?

As far as your religious sensibilities go, you basically (as a modern and unbelieving person, I presume, since you are a relativist) do not understand what religions are and what sin is. Does every "group" have individuals that sin, commit evil acts, etc? Yes.

Does every religion teach that these are OK or permissible? No. Bingo, you have your answer on what my point is. Please tell me you understand this. You don't seem to get that certain people and religions glorify heinous acts, while others call their members to repent from them. This is a basic understanding, but I think most moderns have been fooled into forgetting it, mostly because of their modern, consumer, luxurious life and lack of faith in anything, anymore.

It really sickens me to read all this crap. If you really are
a Christian, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Please respond. Is Jesus Christ God? If he is not, by what authority do you doubt or should I be ashamed of? By someone who doesn't even believe in the Holy Trinity and yet defines what Christianity is? That's more than bizarre, also being illogical, but I am used to it these days.

For what it is worth, I agree you are not a paid troll. We have very different beliefs, but I assume you are sincere.

In a similar way, would you trust someone who does not believe in the liberal values to define what liberalism is? Also bizarre, also illogical, also par for the course. In many cases we do not oppose who we think we oppose, but what we imagine them to be, what xenophobia has twisted them into.

[Cool Breeze]

The thing is, I do believe in liberal values, meaning "freedom."

You actually don't, since you want central powers to coerce people into making towers of babel.

I am the one for freedom, sir. You are not. Which is why your ways end in death and destruction.

[Bob Butler]

The thing is, I do believe in liberal values, meaning "freedom."

You actually don't, since you want central powers to coerce people into making towers of babel.

I am the one for freedom, sir. You are not. Which is why your ways end in death and destruction.

Computers are reaching the point of being able to translate easily and accurately. Thus, they will rather undo the result of the Tower of Babel myth. And, no, I do not see it as a bad thing. Computer translators will make it easier for people to understand each other, harder for xenophobia to thrive. No ideal solution. We both speak perfectly good English, but you are in the habit of hating, lying, and xenophobia. Bypassing the language barrier does not end xenophobia and hate.

I would suggest that xenophobia is unchristian. A Christian is supposed to love his neighbor, and everybody is a neighbor. Yet many here will dislike and misrepresent people with a little pigmentation or different politics. Thus, many here are in no position to make an argument based on Christianity. No one into John’s system of advocating xenophobia is truly Christian.

Freedom. That is a liberal value, but a two edged one. It was expressed once religiously with its limit. “Do what you will, but harm none.” It is necessary to remember the limit.

The states can write laws forbidding running a red light. The hope is that if everybody obeys that law, there will be significantly less harm. In the same way OSHA can write regulations saying certain hazards are not allowed in the workplace. Factory owners have the freedom to make profit, but they may not allow blatant harm to their workers. Similarly, there are laws against certain financial instruments which have demonstrated the ability to collapse the finance system if they become common. Sure, set up a financial arrangement, but not using methods which will harm others.

Thus, creating a more perfect union involves members of that union obeying laws. No shooting people. No insurrections. No acting on your prejudices. If freedom involves no one telling you what to do, it has limits in that your actions cannot hurt others. The two concepts must be held in strong balance.

Do I have a different view of freedom than you? Perhaps. You judge. Does my concept of freedom end in death and destruction? No. It is intended to forbid it.

[Cool Breeze]

Thus, creating a more perfect union involves members of that union obeying laws. No shooting people. No insurrections. No acting on your

Curious, blacks should be your arch enemy, then. Since they disproportionately kill the rest of Americans and commit more than 56% of the murders in the nation being 13% of the population, and of that 13% it's mostly males 16-40, which is like a 3-4% group committing most of the murders. But that would destroy your dishonest narrative. And I'm not saying you should have enemies, but rather, be honest about who commits all the crimes. Violent crimes, btw, are like 85% by blacks. That's nearly all violent crimes by 1 particular group that you love to lie about, and let slide on the whole "xenophobic". Sounds like they are the most violently xenophobic, since they kill both their own race and other races far more than any other group, and it's not even close.

We both speak perfectly good English, but you are in the habit of hating, lying, and xenophobia.

Cite any time I have hated, lied, or been "xenophobic".

I'll wait for another lie, it's ok, that's why we are on a special lying thread call your "polyticks."

[Bob Butler]

Thus, creating a more perfect union involves members of that union obeying laws. No shooting people. No insurrections. No acting on your

Curious, blacks should be your arch enemy, then. Since they disproportionately kill the rest of Americans and commit more than 56% of the murders in the nation being 13% of the population, and of that 13% it's mostly males 16-40, which is like a 3-4% group committing most of the murders. But that would destroy your dishonest narrative. And I'm not saying you should have enemies, but rather, be honest about who commits all the crimes. Violent crimes, btw, are like 85% by blacks. That's nearly all violent crimes by 1 particular group that you love to lie about, and let slide on the whole "xenophobic". Sounds like they are the most violently xenophobic, since they kill both their own race and other races far more than any other group, and it's not even close.

We both speak perfectly good English, but you are in the habit of hating, lying, and xenophobia.

Cite any time I have hated, lied, or been "xenophobic".

I did a quick check of murder statistics. What I came up with was the 2018 FBI homicide numbers. Blacks were the offenders in 40% of the murders listed. Whites were killed by other whites in 81% of the cases, by blacks 15.5 %. Black murder other blacks 89% of the time, by whites 1%. It seems I should be made more nervous by the approach of a white man than by a black, but as there were only 2,677 murders involved out of a much larger population, I am hardly nervous.

Now I don’t generally like to get involved in statistics throwing contests, but where did you get your numbers? That you are nervous indicates xenophobia. The attitude of the post overall indicates hate. That you said over half the murderers are black would make you a liar. Very unchristian of you.

Now this exchange started with your flame post me in John’s Generational Dynamics thread. My responding to your flame drove John’s instinct to censor crazy, not that it takes much. His ideas are so unsupportable that he has to censor heavily. You should possibly avoid flame posts there as I will respond to direct flames where they originate. Might as well come directly here and spare John the trouble.

Out of curiosity, to you acknowledge that freedom ought to be limited by the restriction that you should harm no one?

[John]

** 23-Mar-2021 World View: Flame posts

> Now this exchange started with your flame post me in John’s
> Generational Dynamics thread. My responding to your flame drove
> John’s instinct to censor crazy, not that it takes much. His
> ideas are so unsupportable that he has to censor heavily. You
> should possibly avoid flame posts there as I will respond to
> direct flames where they originate. Might as well come directly
> here and spare John the trouble.

Lol! Hahaha. That's hilarious. But I agree with the last sentence.

[Cool Breeze]

Now I don’t generally like to get involved in statistics throwing contests, but where did you get your numbers? That you are nervous indicates xenophobia. The attitude of the post overall indicates hate. That you said over half the murderers are black would make you a liar. Very unchristian of you.

FBI crime statistics for the last several years all show the same thing. Most recently, 2019. Notice that pointing out the facts of life makes ME the bad guy. The people killing and violently harming others at insane clips aren't the bad guys, the truth tellers are.

I won't be responding to dishonest hacks like Bobby B any longer. Stay off the estrogen therapy, Bobby. Methinks you are too far gone, but hey, a little testosterone might do you and your brain some good.

[Bob Butler]

Now I don’t generally like to get involved in statistics throwing contests, but where did you get your numbers? That you are nervous indicates xenophobia. The attitude of the post overall indicates hate. That you said over half the murderers are black would make you a liar. Very unchristian of you.

FBI crime statistics for the last several years all show the same thing. Most recently, 2019. Notice that pointing out the facts of life makes ME the bad guy. The people killing and violently harming others at insane clips aren't the bad guys, the truth tellers are.

I won't be responding to dishonest hacks like Bobby B any longer. Stay off the estrogen therapy, Bobby. Methinks you are too far gone, but hey, a little testosterone might do you and your brain some good.

Lying about the facts of life does make you a bad guy. You are most apt to be a victim of murder with the perpetrator being of your own race. Your xenophobia about blacks makes you focus your personal fears where they aren’t real. The need to demonize is hardly Christian. An argument involving Christianity and xenophobia is dubious.

I would’t mind a little talk about freedom. I gave several examples of laws that reflected the “do what you will, but harm none” duality. They suggest laws to prevent harm are appropriate. It has got me wondering if laws that do other things should be suspect.

The example I came up with was NASA. Assume their primary goal is to explore space. That would neither limit anyone’s freedom nor harm anyone. The military would be justified in protecting citizens from harm, but using force to acquire profits would be a problem. Can anyone come up with other examples? Perhaps a law to increase profits of a particular group of elites or allow harm to some particular group should set off alarms? The recent example would be Trump requiring meat packing plants to remain open while not requiring protections to the workers.