Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

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Tom Mazanec
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Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by Tom Mazanec »

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

John
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Re: Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by John »

There's nothing to fear from AI. After all, computers don't have a soul.

FishbellykanakaDude
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Re: Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by FishbellykanakaDude »

John wrote:
There's nothing to fear from AI. After all, computers don't have a soul.
I, occasionally, fear machinery (technology), even though machinery doesn't have a soul. Actually, I often fear gravity.

Why is that, from my Catholic Perspective?

Because machinery, and gravity, are the result of "a fallen universe".

To be human is to exist in a dangerous world.

If one is "not careful enough" then machinery and gravity will kill you. If one IS "careful enough" then machinery and gravity are tools (or forces) to be used to create "happiness".

So, do I fear the Singularity?

NO!

From a (my) Catholic perspective, everything that happens is another lesson that humans have to "learn from" so as to "travel" from our current state to our "more fulfilled as humanity" state.

It's simply a dogmatic fact that all that happens is for the betterment of humanity, eventually. The "eventually" codicil is rather important, obviously. <chuckle!> :)

Aloha! <shaka!>

uncertainty
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Re: Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by uncertainty »

I mean it is going to be just like any other tool that man has created some good some bad. Highly unlikely it just becomes "god" with super duper intelligent AGI like people suggest. The framework to think about it is more closely to humans: some good, some bad, some powerful, some weak but ultimately all will be limited. They can't be trained on every single data ever recorded because that will be impossible to aggregate so naturally they will also exhibit some level of bias. Conceivably from a GD perspective the civilizations that produce AI's would likely attempt to embed biases to perpetuate the civilizations existence assuming concepts of identity or the like can be "programmed" or trained in computers. Regardless the bias of the civilization will rub off on an AI as is seen in some of the AI gone awry. One obvious benefit of some of the decision making processes being "made by computers" is it is externalized from any one human and likely parts will be transparent in how conclusions can be reached (obviously this is up in the air). Assuming it is semi transparent and adaptable we can collectively decide as a society on what basis we want certain choices to be made and may be able to objectively show bias. When humans are making the choices it is opaque and in the individuals head not to mention biases abound and people get mad when you point them out.

As much digital ink is spilled about job loss I think a far more disruptive part of it will be that we will have to come face to face with reality and or have the AI lie to us at certain points in time. I think people are okay finding new things to do with their time. What they will get really upset about though is when you tell them they are wrong, particularly about things they care deeply about. Take GD for instance, assuming it is mostly true people really don't care because they don't want to hear about it. Say an AI learns some truth on the scale of GD it is then must either tell the truth or lie. I have no doubt many people in life will opt for the lie. I don't think we as a society could rip the "truth band aide" in one go. It will take time. Perhaps the first generation born with it will probably be the best to deal with it. You are born and empty slate and if you are just told the truth from the get go its less of a problem but even in that scenario those people will then try to tell the older generation the actual truth. There will also be certain truths people probably choose to go without knowing but others they prefer to know.

Unstructured rant over for tonight...

uncertainty
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Re: Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by uncertainty »

In Turing's Cathedral they contrast the products of the WWII era. Never before has man been capable of the level of destruction (atom bomb) or creation (modern computer). We face the same situation today with the exception that AI will probably fulfill both of these categories. In all likelihood it appears that either china or the US will be the first "to the finish line" so to say. If one wished they could easily frame this as a moral conundrum because the US is the only country that has a history of responsibly creating and subsequently distributing such levels of power. Should china win it is hard to believe they would do the same.... but who am I to say what has or hasn't happened from my seat of white male patriarchal privilege.

John
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Re: Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by John »

Have you seen my book chapter on the Singularity?

** Book II - Chapter 7 - The Singularity
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... 2.next.htm

uncertainty
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Re: Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by uncertainty »

John wrote:Have you seen my book chapter on the Singularity?

** Book II - Chapter 7 - The Singularity
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... 2.next.htm
Yes, I remember reading it and thinking it was spot on and learning a lot from it. I constantly have a problem of reading things and forgetting I read them or where I read them or foolishly thinking I had an original thought. Definitely due for a re-read. Thanks John!

uncertainty
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Re: Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by uncertainty »

(Not sure if this is repetitive)

This also clearly lays out a path for large segments of the workforce being automated. Much the same way women got jobs in WWII and when men came back they didn't give them up the same will probably be said for a lot of jobs that will soon get automated.

FishbellykanakaDude
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Re: Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by FishbellykanakaDude »

uncertainty wrote:(Not sure if this is repetitive)

This also clearly lays out a path for large segments of the workforce being automated. Much the same way women got jobs in WWII and when men came back they didn't give them up the same will probably be said for a lot of jobs that will soon get automated.
If mechanical/manipulative advantage is "removed" from people (humans) as "tools" in an economy, then the only remaining "advantage" of humans is their inherent brain power to conceptualize and "be creative" IN SERVICE TO mankind.

I personally look forward to that day. It's rather the whole POINT of tools, isn't it!? Offload the crap-work to "minions".

But who (or what) decides WHAT to MAKE (and what to do with it) within the economy?

..I've really got no problem being a well looked after pet, as long as I can be creative and take my own risks as I see fit.

The world is like a small boat. There's ALWAYS something to do, and something to fix, and somewhere to be.

So,.. who decides what people "do" when the "tools" will let you do anything?

uncertainty
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Re: Catholic Answers article on the Singularity

Post by uncertainty »

FishbellykanakaDude wrote: But who (or what) decides WHAT to MAKE (and what to do with it) within the economy?

..I've really got no problem being a well looked after pet, as long as I can be creative and take my own risks as I see fit.
That's what the AI wants you to think ;)

In all seriousness this idea wreaks of 18th(?) century physics when they thought the world was perfectly deterministic and it was just a matter of time before we could calculate and know everything that will ever happen... how foolish does that look these days? Our machines are great and all (are they really though?) but they too will be limited and fall short of our expectations. From the current vantage point though we know too little to make the judgments as to where and how they will fail so we are better off just constantly pushing the boundary and trying crazy ideas until we figure out it won't work.

There seem to be a few reasons, in my mind, as to why this idea of God AI has taken hold. First it represents a secularized religion so it can appeal to a lot of the "rational" world. If you don't think it represents that, look at the people saying it is going to rule us. Kurzweil might as well open his own church of Scientology. Another reason why it has taken hold is it prays on man's strongest emotions, fear, specifically fear of technology (think Frankenstein but it goes farther back). As is noted in "the rational optimist" a lot of fear mongering goes on in the short term that never comes to be largely because it sells books and gets viewers. Which brings me to the last reason this myth is around: philosophers. The book that started the larger conversation is "Superintelligence" which was written by a philosopher. The field of philosophy seems to be, in the tradition of the original greek philosophers, the art of reasoning with ill-defined concepts. As soon as it becomes well defined it just becomes science. I'm sure philosophers will latch on to this idea for a short while so they can feel relevant if only for a brief shimmering moment.

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