by Guest » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:53 pm
Guest wrote:Yes, I know about the Spartans. It wasn't until the '300" episode that Greeks fully accepted the Spartans as Greek. Yeah, I know. I'm not dazzled by any of this. You are still following the party line. You say the Macedonians were never referred to as foreigners? A lot of sources refer to them as separate from Greeks. Examples of monarchy 'after Alexander' and you refer to Byzantium? The Romans later conquered Greece and eventually the Republic gave way to Emperors, but that had nothing to do with the Greeks themselves. Byzantium was founded by a Roman(5-6 centuries after AG's death). It didn't start thinking of itself as 'Greek' until near the end of its existence in 1453. You are really stretching things. The Greeks didn't want kings. The Macedonians were regarded as a separate people. How closely related the languages were is so politicized now, who knows if agreement is possible. But considering the proximity of the countries, it wouldn't surprise me. Are Spanish and Portuguese the same people?
Let's think of this another way. BYU used DNA testing to prove that modern Egyptians, though Arab, do have ancient Egyptian DNA. The Slavs invaded the Balkans and the bloodlines mingled. Modern Macedonians speak a Slavic language, but modern Egyptians speak Arabic. It doesn't change the fact that the modern residents have bloodlines going back thousands of years. And Modern Greeks have mixed ancestry because of all the invasions and occupations by foreigners. The Greeks aren't pure bloods.
You follow the arguments of Athens to the letter. Raiding Wiki is not enough to make you a historian.
Oh, I disagree with many Greeks on this issue. Some Greeks claim that Greece has had a continuous and unbroken existence as a nation from antiquity to this day. This is simply not the case.
First, the Romans conquered the Greeks and formed an empire that was politically Roman, although the Romans borrowed much from the Greeks in culture. The Greeks as an ethnic group ceased to be distinct in the Roman Era. The term 'Hellen' (translated as 'Greek') is often used in the Roman era to refer to other ethic groups who are Greek speaking. Similarly, 'Macedonian' was often used to refer to anyone living in the Roman Province of Macedonia, regardless of ethnic origin. Understand that during the Roman Empire someone could be 'Greek' (referring to the language he spoke), 'Macedonian' (referring to the province he inhabited), and 'Roman' (referring to his citizenship) all at the same time. I would say that the late Roman or Byzantine Empire did NOT start thinking of itself as 'Greek' even towards the end of it's existence. The Emperor's title was still 'King of the Romans' until the very end.
Second, the Byzantine Empire was then conquered by the Ottoman Turks. During this era, there was more ethnic mixing, with the primary identification being religion (Christian or Muslim) above race or language. Even during the Ottoman rule, the Greek people still usually referred to themselves as 'Romans', only the educated class used the term 'Hellens'. It was not until Greece became independent that 'Hellen' became the usual term. ('Greek' being a Latin derived term is the translation in English.)
I am quite certain that both the modern 'Geeks' and the modern 'Macedonians' are of mixed ancestry including Achaean, Dorian, Macedonian, Roman, Slavonic, Bulgar, and many others. My point is this: by any measurable standard (be it language, geography, or any other) the Modern Greeks are closer to the Ancient Macedonians than are the Modern Macedonians, but neither nation has a direct succession. This oftens angers members of both nations who each claim that their own nation is the direct successor.
P.S.
One more thing.
A lot of sources refer to them as separate from Greeks.
Can you name one? I would love to read it and see what you mean.
[quote="Guest"]Yes, I know about the Spartans. It wasn't until the '300" episode that Greeks fully accepted the Spartans as Greek. Yeah, I know. I'm not dazzled by any of this. You are still following the party line. You say the Macedonians were never referred to as foreigners? A lot of sources refer to them as separate from Greeks. Examples of monarchy 'after Alexander' and you refer to Byzantium? The Romans later conquered Greece and eventually the Republic gave way to Emperors, but that had nothing to do with the Greeks themselves. Byzantium was founded by a Roman(5-6 centuries after AG's death). It didn't start thinking of itself as 'Greek' until near the end of its existence in 1453. You are really stretching things. The Greeks didn't want kings. The Macedonians were regarded as a separate people. How closely related the languages were is so politicized now, who knows if agreement is possible. But considering the proximity of the countries, it wouldn't surprise me. Are Spanish and Portuguese the same people?
Let's think of this another way. BYU used DNA testing to prove that modern Egyptians, though Arab, do have ancient Egyptian DNA. The Slavs invaded the Balkans and the bloodlines mingled. Modern Macedonians speak a Slavic language, but modern Egyptians speak Arabic. It doesn't change the fact that the modern residents have bloodlines going back thousands of years. And Modern Greeks have mixed ancestry because of all the invasions and occupations by foreigners. The Greeks aren't pure bloods.
You follow the arguments of Athens to the letter. Raiding Wiki is not enough to make you a historian.[/quote]
Oh, I disagree with many Greeks on this issue. Some Greeks claim that Greece has had a continuous and unbroken existence as a nation from antiquity to this day. This is simply not the case.
First, the Romans conquered the Greeks and formed an empire that was politically Roman, although the Romans borrowed much from the Greeks in culture. The Greeks as an ethnic group ceased to be distinct in the Roman Era. The term 'Hellen' (translated as 'Greek') is often used in the Roman era to refer to other ethic groups who are Greek speaking. Similarly, 'Macedonian' was often used to refer to anyone living in the Roman Province of Macedonia, regardless of ethnic origin. Understand that during the Roman Empire someone could be 'Greek' (referring to the language he spoke), 'Macedonian' (referring to the province he inhabited), and 'Roman' (referring to his citizenship) all at the same time. I would say that the late Roman or Byzantine Empire did NOT start thinking of itself as 'Greek' even towards the end of it's existence. The Emperor's title was still 'King of the Romans' until the very end.
Second, the Byzantine Empire was then conquered by the Ottoman Turks. During this era, there was more ethnic mixing, with the primary identification being religion (Christian or Muslim) above race or language. Even during the Ottoman rule, the Greek people still usually referred to themselves as 'Romans', only the educated class used the term 'Hellens'. It was not until Greece became independent that 'Hellen' became the usual term. ('Greek' being a Latin derived term is the translation in English.)
I am quite certain that both the modern 'Geeks' and the modern 'Macedonians' are of mixed ancestry including Achaean, Dorian, Macedonian, Roman, Slavonic, Bulgar, and many others. My point is this: by any measurable standard (be it language, geography, or any other) the Modern Greeks are closer to the Ancient Macedonians than are the Modern Macedonians, but neither nation has a direct succession. This oftens angers members of both nations who each claim that their own nation is the direct successor.
P.S.
One more thing.
[quote]A lot of sources refer to them as separate from Greeks.[/quote]
Can you name one? I would love to read it and see what you mean.