by jmm1184 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:29 pm
This is contrary to historical fact. You should look at the Mennonites or Amish for example. These and some other sects descended from the Anabaptists are have existed for over four hundred years. They are strict pacifists and they live it. There are many examples of these strictly pacifist religious minorities being willing to die, rather than fight back.
Their survival is owed to two reasons. First they have often been protected by the resident majority who do not share their beliefs. These are not others of their own but of a different religious sect, and often of a different race and language too. Second, when they fall under harsh persecution, they have shown a historic willingness to leave the land in which they dwell, rather than stand their ground. This tendency to flee, rather than fight is typical of pacifist religions.
Religions of peace are rare and no major world religion can be classified as pacifist, in all its sects. But they do exist and, if 48 is more that a few, they can survive for more that a few decades
Whether you call them a religion, sect, cult, or denomination is a matter of semantics. The fact is that the Amish, Mennonites and similar groups form distinct ethno-religious communities. They usually live in towns inhabited entirely by their own group. They are highly endothermic rarely intermarry with outsiders. The old orders (in both Brazil and the united states) continue to speak a distinct dialect incomprehensible to speakers of English, Portuguese, or standard German. These are small and scattered societies to be sure, but this is much more than an individual or a random group of individuals.
This is very well said. My own ancestors are the Mennonite-Pennsylvania Dutch. Even though they are technically a religious denomination of Christianity historically they rarely intermarried outside of the Mennonite Church. As such if I meet someone with certain last names, such as Landis, Zimmerman, Herr, Martin, Yoder, Hess, Mann, Manning, Clemens, Hostetter, and many others, and find out they are descended from or are a part of the Mennonite-Pennsylvania Dutch I know for a certainty that I am related to them somehow because all of the families intermarried with one another. As such you can make a case they constitute a distinct ethno-religious group. Its interesting that the old order Mennonites and the Amish, who both often use Pennsylvania Dutch as their spoken language at home, call the surrounding American citizenry, the English.
What's the dynamic that holds these small groups together for
generations? Why don't the younger generations rebel, become
nationalistic and xenophobic like everyone else, and demand change?
The material discussed in this thread has been very interesting. The
above sentence is the only one that I would question. If an isolated
minority is in a protected enclave within a nation, then it will
always be on the same generational timeline. One could perhaps
imagine a scenario where the enclave is on the border, and the
minority has its own war with some other nation, but that would
violate the assumption of an isolated protected minority
The Mennonites were immediately persecuted for their religious beliefs, and until they emigrated to Pennsylvania Mennonites were sporadically but frequently persecuted. I've suspected this history of persecution contributed to their insularity, which thus made the group cohesive. The interesting thing is that generational change and conflict are still very present, as much of their history, particularly in the USA, is marked by divisions between different groups, often between a group advocating a more austere form of religious worship and practice over another groups they view as more lax.
But I suspect the reasons why the groups maintain their pacifism is two-fold: first, they are trained from a young age that violence against another human is morally wrong and out of the question. As some of you may recall, in 2006 an Amish school-house was the victim of a mentally unstable man who burst into the school house and opened fire on the children and their teacher. I can't recall the reason - there probably was none. But I do recall a conversation between a news caster interviewing a former Amish-man and asked him if it was possible the shooter was one of their own (an Amish man). The former-Amish man said that was impossible because its not even an option in the Amish psyche. No matter how much you disagree with someone the option of violence is never entertained.
The second reason is that because these groups are still largely part of a non-pacifist society, there is a "way-out" for people who disagree with the Mennonite teachings - they can simply leave the church. The same is true of the Amish, though if a church member leaves they shun that person and it is as if they are dead. However, if someone grows up Amish and never joins the church, their church-going family will still have regular contact with them. So any members who would perhaps "rebel" against pacifism simply leave the group - thus the church/community membership stays pacifist.
What's interesting about the Mennonite experience is that I'm convinced they follow the timeline of whatever group/state shelters them. My grandfather was 19 years old when Pearl Harbor occurred, but he did not enlist because he would have been excommunicated. However, my mother suspects it haunted him the rest of his life because he was shamed by the non-Mennonite community as a coward. So I suspect there is still a form of trauma that occurs for pacifist communities during a crisis war, because the pressure to abandon their pacifism is at its height. Interestingly, many Mennonites briefly gave up their pacifism in the Revolutionary War to fight in the militias and defend their homes, though any who fought were excommunicated.
I've even devised a timeline for the Mennonites-Pennsylvania Dutch.
1941-1945: WWII
1861-1865: American Civil War - notably Lancaster County, PA, where they are located, experienced movements of troops and battles during the Gettysburg campaign.
1775-1781: American War of Independence
1702-1712: The War of the Spanish Succession - both in Germany & Switzerland and in Pennsylvania as an extension of the British Empire.
1618-1635: The Thirty Years War. I've listed the end date as 1635 as that appears to have been the climax for the local German peoples, even though the war was continued by the French and Swedes, forcing the Germans to continue fighting.
1524-1535?: The Reformation: German Peasan'ts War and the Munster Rebellion. The Munster Rebellion was a revolt against the local Catholic Prince led by Anabaptists who at that time were not pacifists. They rebellion was brutally put down and it is believed that their defeat contributed to the importance of pacifism in Anabaptist thought.
[quote]This is contrary to historical fact. You should look at the Mennonites or Amish for example. These and some other sects descended from the Anabaptists are have existed for over four hundred years. They are strict pacifists and they live it. There are many examples of these strictly pacifist religious minorities being willing to die, rather than fight back.
Their survival is owed to two reasons. First they have often been protected by the resident majority who do not share their beliefs. These are not others of their own but of a different religious sect, and often of a different race and language too. Second, when they fall under harsh persecution, they have shown a historic willingness to leave the land in which they dwell, rather than stand their ground. This tendency to flee, rather than fight is typical of pacifist religions.
Religions of peace are rare and no major world religion can be classified as pacifist, in all its sects. But they do exist and, if 48 is more that a few, they can survive for more that a few decades
[/quote]
[quote]Whether you call them a religion, sect, cult, or denomination is a matter of semantics. The fact is that the Amish, Mennonites and similar groups form distinct ethno-religious communities. They usually live in towns inhabited entirely by their own group. They are highly endothermic rarely intermarry with outsiders. The old orders (in both Brazil and the united states) continue to speak a distinct dialect incomprehensible to speakers of English, Portuguese, or standard German. These are small and scattered societies to be sure, but this is much more than an individual or a random group of individuals.
[/quote]
This is very well said. My own ancestors are the Mennonite-Pennsylvania Dutch. Even though they are technically a religious denomination of Christianity historically they rarely intermarried outside of the Mennonite Church. As such if I meet someone with certain last names, such as Landis, Zimmerman, Herr, Martin, Yoder, Hess, Mann, Manning, Clemens, Hostetter, and many others, and find out they are descended from or are a part of the Mennonite-Pennsylvania Dutch I know for a certainty that I am related to them somehow because all of the families intermarried with one another. As such you can make a case they constitute a distinct ethno-religious group. Its interesting that the old order Mennonites and the Amish, who both often use Pennsylvania Dutch as their spoken language at home, call the surrounding American citizenry, the English.
[quote]What's the dynamic that holds these small groups together for
generations? Why don't the younger generations rebel, become
nationalistic and xenophobic like everyone else, and demand change?[/quote]
[quote]The material discussed in this thread has been very interesting. The
above sentence is the only one that I would question. If an isolated
minority is in a protected enclave within a nation, then it will
always be on the same generational timeline. One could perhaps
imagine a scenario where the enclave is on the border, and the
minority has its own war with some other nation, but that would
violate the assumption of an isolated protected minority[/quote]
The Mennonites were immediately persecuted for their religious beliefs, and until they emigrated to Pennsylvania Mennonites were sporadically but frequently persecuted. I've suspected this history of persecution contributed to their insularity, which thus made the group cohesive. The interesting thing is that generational change and conflict are still very present, as much of their history, particularly in the USA, is marked by divisions between different groups, often between a group advocating a more austere form of religious worship and practice over another groups they view as more lax.
But I suspect the reasons why the groups maintain their pacifism is two-fold: first, they are trained from a young age that violence against another human is morally wrong and out of the question. As some of you may recall, in 2006 an Amish school-house was the victim of a mentally unstable man who burst into the school house and opened fire on the children and their teacher. I can't recall the reason - there probably was none. But I do recall a conversation between a news caster interviewing a former Amish-man and asked him if it was possible the shooter was one of their own (an Amish man). The former-Amish man said that was impossible because its not even an option in the Amish psyche. No matter how much you disagree with someone the option of violence is never entertained.
The second reason is that because these groups are still largely part of a non-pacifist society, there is a "way-out" for people who disagree with the Mennonite teachings - they can simply leave the church. The same is true of the Amish, though if a church member leaves they shun that person and it is as if they are dead. However, if someone grows up Amish and never joins the church, their church-going family will still have regular contact with them. So any members who would perhaps "rebel" against pacifism simply leave the group - thus the church/community membership stays pacifist.
What's interesting about the Mennonite experience is that I'm convinced they follow the timeline of whatever group/state shelters them. My grandfather was 19 years old when Pearl Harbor occurred, but he did not enlist because he would have been excommunicated. However, my mother suspects it haunted him the rest of his life because he was shamed by the non-Mennonite community as a coward. So I suspect there is still a form of trauma that occurs for pacifist communities during a crisis war, because the pressure to abandon their pacifism is at its height. Interestingly, many Mennonites briefly gave up their pacifism in the Revolutionary War to fight in the militias and defend their homes, though any who fought were excommunicated.
I've even devised a timeline for the Mennonites-Pennsylvania Dutch.
1941-1945: WWII
1861-1865: American Civil War - notably Lancaster County, PA, where they are located, experienced movements of troops and battles during the Gettysburg campaign.
1775-1781: American War of Independence
1702-1712: The War of the Spanish Succession - both in Germany & Switzerland and in Pennsylvania as an extension of the British Empire.
1618-1635: The Thirty Years War. I've listed the end date as 1635 as that appears to have been the climax for the local German peoples, even though the war was continued by the French and Swedes, forcing the Germans to continue fighting.
1524-1535?: The Reformation: German Peasan'ts War and the Munster Rebellion. The Munster Rebellion was a revolt against the local Catholic Prince led by Anabaptists who at that time were not pacifists. They rebellion was brutally put down and it is believed that their defeat contributed to the importance of pacifism in Anabaptist thought.