by FishbellykanakaDude » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:26 pm
thomasglee wrote:FishbellykanakaDude wrote:John wrote:
If you're a religious person, then I'll present to you the conundrum
that I've presented to other religious people. The population of
every species grows faster than the growth of the food supply or other
resources. That can be derived from the theory of evolution. And
it's true for humans too. So if the population grows faster than the
food supply, then regular wars of extermination are a mathematical
requirement. And if you're a religious person, then you have to ask
yourself: Why did God create a world in which wars of extermination
(generational crisis wars) mathematically must occur at regular
intervals? And if such wars must occur, then how can humans be blamed
for them?
God created the world.
"Mankind" caused it to "fall",.. assisted by a being that foresaw that "mankind" would cause it to fall who resides in a non-biomaterial-time "domain", who, like all of his kind, cannot "take back" and is eternally committed to every decision made, and has a fundamental flaw.
This "fall" converted "the world" from what it was (?) to a "classroom" for "mankind".
One of the lessons is to deal with the "necessity of evil" problem.
Another lesson is dealing with the "blame" problem.
OK,.. enough with the theology.
Well,.. a few explanations first:
- "Mankind" is the material that is evolving into the summit lifeform on every "planet" (homeworld).
- The "Fall" is the result of the negentropic tendencies of this "mankind stuff".
- "Evil" is that which causes discomfort/suffering in "mankind stuff" (thwarts the progress of negentropic processes).
- "Blame" is the over-attribution of the cause of evil on a "mankind stuff" thing (an "individual").
I'd love to discuss theology with you, or anyone, but that wasn't really the point of my original posting.
My point was Morris' interesting contention that a human tribe in "the right environment" PLUS war EQUALS movement of a larger portion toward the "goal" of mankind.
That "goal" is overcoming the tendency to ("have to") use genocidal war as the whetstone to produce more and longer lasting "beauty" in our (ever expanding) vicinity.
In other words, war is used (in the coalescent phase) to create larger "empires" so as to "civilize" a larger population, and then used (in the decoupling phase) to identify and "weed out" the "errors" that civilizational coalescence engenders.
Yet another "tidal" process that "powers" the evolution of "mankind" forward.
Aloha nui gangies! <shaka!>
You've nailed it. When Adam violated God's commandment to not eat of the tree of knowledge, God informed Adam, "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life." As you indicate, God DID create this world perfect enough that war, etc., would not be required to support human life, but man then messed it all up.
My definition of "man" may be a bit different from yours, though.
"Mankind", or "man", is the collection of all the planetary ("planets" throughout the universe) "negentropic processes" that evolve material (matter) into the "summit lifeform" for each of their respective planets.
The very idea (the possibility) of "negentropy", and it's "choice" by that which "uses/promotes/continues" it into the future, is the "fall" of the "preternatural perfect universe".
Now,.. did the "preternatural perfect universe" ever actually exist? It existed, by (rather circular) definition, before the universe "fell", of course. It existed before any negentropic process started. When, exactly, was that? Beats me. Do I believe it DID exist? Yes.
When "man" chose to "eat" of that which would "stir the perfect order" of the universe, it made it "imperfect" but "useful".
To choose "usefulness" over perfection is to choose "death" for that which is less than useful. Thus "death" was created. "Evil" was then made necessary, as evil is simply some "user" of negentropy being made "uncomfortable" by being the "source" of energy (fuel/food) for some OTHER "user" of negentropy.
To answer John's question:
"Why did God create a world in which wars of extermination
(generational crisis wars) mathematically must occur at regular
intervals? And if such wars must occur, then how can humans be blamed
for them?"
God (the creator) created a potentially "interesting" place, which chose (the PLACE chose) to actually BE interesting,.. and part of that "interestingness" is the learning process that is battling with the consequences of "evil".
Every "lifeform" can be blamed for eating, but can't be blamed for needing to eat. The "original negentropic process SPARK" (as it were) CAN be blamed for the necessity to eat, as that is what it explicitly chose.
Why would God create such a world? Because the world as it is (as it was created) contains the two most important "things" that CAN exist!
1) Interestingness
2) Free Will
..that discomfort (evil) is a necessity in such a world is simply the most basic of all "rules" inherent (but uncreated by God) in this most interesting universe.
So how should "summit lifeforms" (like us) deal with the necessity of evil? By not "overly feeling" discomfort (some insensitivity) and/or by avoiding the "over production" of discomfort (kindness).
..in any case, when discomfort is necessary, it must be endured and maximally "learned from" without creating MORE discomfort than absolutely necessary via reasoned forgiveness so as to avoid "despair". "Despair" is the willful over creation of evil due to the reception of evil.
Aloha nui!
<shaka!>
[quote="thomasglee"][quote="FishbellykanakaDude"][quote="John"]
If you're a religious person, then I'll present to you the conundrum
that I've presented to other religious people. The population of
every species grows faster than the growth of the food supply or other
resources. That can be derived from the theory of evolution. And
it's true for humans too. So if the population grows faster than the
food supply, then regular wars of extermination are a mathematical
requirement. And if you're a religious person, then you have to ask
yourself: Why did God create a world in which wars of extermination
(generational crisis wars) mathematically must occur at regular
intervals? And if such wars must occur, then how can humans be blamed
for them?[/quote]
God created the world.
"Mankind" caused it to "fall",.. assisted by a being that foresaw that "mankind" would cause it to fall who resides in a non-biomaterial-time "domain", who, like all of his kind, cannot "take back" and is eternally committed to every decision made, and has a fundamental flaw.
This "fall" converted "the world" from what it was (?) to a "classroom" for "mankind".
One of the lessons is to deal with the "necessity of evil" problem.
Another lesson is dealing with the "blame" problem.
OK,.. enough with the theology. :) Well,.. a few explanations first:
[list][*]"Mankind" is the material that is evolving into the summit lifeform on every "planet" (homeworld).
[*]The "Fall" is the result of the negentropic tendencies of this "mankind stuff".
[*]"Evil" is that which causes discomfort/suffering in "mankind stuff" (thwarts the progress of negentropic processes).
[*]"Blame" is the over-attribution of the cause of evil on a "mankind stuff" thing (an "individual").[/list]
I'd love to discuss theology with you, or anyone, but that wasn't really the point of my original posting.
My point was Morris' interesting contention that a human tribe in "the right environment" PLUS war EQUALS movement of a larger portion toward the "goal" of mankind.
That "goal" is overcoming the tendency to ("have to") use genocidal war as the whetstone to produce more and longer lasting "beauty" in our (ever expanding) vicinity.
In other words, war is used (in the coalescent phase) to create larger "empires" so as to "civilize" a larger population, and then used (in the decoupling phase) to identify and "weed out" the "errors" that civilizational coalescence engenders.
Yet another "tidal" process that "powers" the evolution of "mankind" forward. :)
Aloha nui gangies! <shaka!>[/quote]
You've nailed it. When Adam violated God's commandment to not eat of the tree of knowledge, God informed Adam, "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life." As you indicate, God DID create this world perfect enough that war, etc., would not be required to support human life, but man then messed it all up.[/quote]
:)
My definition of "man" may be a bit different from yours, though.
"Mankind", or "man", is the collection of all the planetary ("planets" throughout the universe) "negentropic processes" that evolve material (matter) into the "summit lifeform" for each of their respective planets.
The very idea (the possibility) of "negentropy", and it's "choice" by that which "uses/promotes/continues" it into the future, is the "fall" of the "preternatural perfect universe".
Now,.. did the "preternatural perfect universe" ever actually exist? It existed, by (rather circular) definition, before the universe "fell", of course. It existed before any negentropic process started. When, exactly, was that? Beats me. Do I believe it DID exist? Yes.
When "man" chose to "eat" of that which would "stir the perfect order" of the universe, it made it "imperfect" but "useful".
To choose "usefulness" over perfection is to choose "death" for that which is less than useful. Thus "death" was created. "Evil" was then made necessary, as evil is simply some "user" of negentropy being made "uncomfortable" by being the "source" of energy (fuel/food) for some OTHER "user" of negentropy.
To answer John's question:
[quote]"Why did God create a world in which wars of extermination
(generational crisis wars) mathematically must occur at regular
intervals? And if such wars must occur, then how can humans be blamed
for them?"[/quote]
God (the creator) created a potentially "interesting" place, which chose (the PLACE chose) to actually BE interesting,.. and part of that "interestingness" is the learning process that is battling with the consequences of "evil".
Every "lifeform" can be blamed for eating, but can't be blamed for needing to eat. The "original negentropic process SPARK" (as it were) CAN be blamed for the necessity to eat, as that is what it explicitly chose.
Why would God create such a world? Because the world as it is (as it was created) contains the two most important "things" that CAN exist!
1) Interestingness
2) Free Will
..that discomfort (evil) is a necessity in such a world is simply the most basic of all "rules" inherent (but uncreated by God) in this most interesting universe.
So how should "summit lifeforms" (like us) deal with the necessity of evil? By not "overly feeling" discomfort (some insensitivity) and/or by avoiding the "over production" of discomfort (kindness).
..in any case, when discomfort is necessary, it must be endured and maximally "learned from" without creating MORE discomfort than absolutely necessary via reasoned forgiveness so as to avoid "despair". "Despair" is the willful over creation of evil due to the reception of evil.
Aloha nui! :) <shaka!>