by FishbellykanakaDude » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:39 pm
John wrote:** 12-Sep-2019 World View: Suicide rate
The suicide issue is a lot more complicated than the "Life is an
absolutely incredible gift" simplistic moralizing approach.
For Generational Dynamics, I've written thousands of articles on
things like war, torture, rape, genocide, ethnic cleansing, poverty,
starvation and suicide. What I've learned is that "Life is absolutely
incredibly worthless." And life is particularly absolutely incredibly
worthless for old people, who are worth less than garbage.
Here's a quote that captures the concept:
Man of La Mancha wrote:
> "'Life as it is.' I have lived for over forty years
> and I've seen 'life as it is'. Pain. Misery.
> Cruelty beyond belief. I've heard all the voices of
> God's noblest creature -- moans from bundles of filth
> in the street. I've been a soldier and a slave. I've
> seen my comrades fall in battle or die more slowly
> under the lash in Africa. I've held them at the last
> moment. These were men who saw 'life as it is,' but
> they died despairing.
> No glory. No bray of last words. Only their eyes,
> filled with confusion, questioning, 'Why?'
> I do not think they were asking why they were dying,
> but why they had ever lived.
> When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where
> madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness.
> To surrender dreams, this may be madness. To seek
> treasure where there is only trash. Too much sanity
> may be madness. But maddest of all -- to see life as
> it is, and not as it should be!"
All animals (and in fact all negentropic entities) "know" inherently, within their very being, that their existence is a part of a "game",.. that they are committed to "play" only as long as they want to play.
But, as the last line of the above suggests, while one chooses to remain in the game, the game should be seen for what it "should be", and not exclusively as what it actually is, because that IS the "maddest" thing (choice) of all,.. where "madness" means "angry infliction of unnecessary suffering" to, in this case, oneself.
For every species of animal, the population grows faster than the
food supply. The same is true for humans.
If the population grows faster than the food supply, as it does for
every animal species, then there have to be ways to get rid of people
-- through war, disease, famine, genocide, ethnic cleansing, suicide.
One can prove mathematically that these things must occur.
If you believe that God created the world, then it's God's fault that
war, disease, famine, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and suicide occur.
If God didn't want these things to occur, then he should have created
a world where the population and the food supply grow at the same
rate. But they don't, and that's God's fault.
My theology informs me that the world was created as a "perfect thing" (organism or machine), and that it was "later" made imperfect, or rather "later noticed to be imperfect", by and for "man" ("man" being whatever "planetary apex lifeform" existed at any particular time).
But why would "we" do that?
Because "we" were bored, and life can not abide boredom.
God gives us precisely what we need, when we "state" what we want.
The question that occurred to "us" to "solve" our boredom was: Are we more than this?
..and thus began the game, with it's rules and side-effects, that would most precisely give us what we need. Thus before and after, here and there, and more and less were "allowed".
One either believes that we are moving toward "more than this", or not.
To not believe that is the madness that allows the infliction of unnecessary suffering, and the unnecessary relief of necessary suffering.
The need for war, genocide and suicide becomes more and more apparent
during decades of peace, as each decade passes, there is less food per
person than the previous decade. Everything falls into place during
generational crisis wars, where this imbalance is fixed.
If you believe that God created the world, then you can see all of
God's tools come into place to fix the problem that he created -- war,
disease, famine, genocide, ethnic cleansing, suicide are all the
"absolutely incredible gifts" that God provided as tools to kill
enough worthless people so that the rest of the worthless people have
enough to eat. God makes sure that, sooner or later, every nation
throws out its garbage.
Tools are used by those who need tools. God has no need of tools.
We use tools. We use them freely by choice.
Disease is a rather special case, as it and storms (and the like) are not human directed (excepting bio-warfare),.. but the use of human created "useful" tools is not God's fault.
But once a human created system has "ground itself up" sufficiently, it WILL indeed be "cleansed" in one way or another.
Everybody's heard of the "Baby Boom" that followed World War II.
But few people mention the "Baby Bust" that precedes a generational
crisis war. We're seeing it today as young people postpone
marriage and children, and the suicide rate has been going up
for almost 20 years.
There's less food per person today than there was in the 1990s, and
that translates into poverty, and so in America we're seeing more
suicides by people who can't pay for groceries, and also more suicides
by teenagers who love their parents enough to want to spare them the
enormous costs of raising children. If you or your parents can't
pay for groceries, then killing yourself is perfectly reasonable.
https://ourworldindata.org/food-per-person
Not sure where your data is (are?) coming from, but I won't quibble.
But, I can certainly respect someone who is so thoroughly convinced that they are more worthy as a dead person than as a living person that they go all the way to eliminating themselves from "the game".
THAT is a true believer!
... Here's one nugget from the article that I found particularly
interesting: "The suicide rate remained higher than normal throughout
the remainder of the Great Depression and was then drastically reduced
when World War II began in Europe."
I interpret this to mean that when someone who can't afford to buy
groceries might commit suicide during times of peace, but might join
the army during times of war. That way, you become a hero rather than
a coward.
People who commit suicide are viewed by other people as cowards,
heroes or martyrs. If you're going to commit suicide, then you might
commit suicide by joining the army so you can be a hero. Or you might
commit suicide in the name of the Pope, so that you'll be a martyr and
-- who knows? You might even be rewarded for committing suicide by
becoming a Saint.
After all: Like war, committing suicide is God's Will.
Suicide, by definition, is the will of the person doing it.
Some choose to believe that everything that occurs happened BECAUSE God willed it. That is not the case in my theology.
We are not puppets.
The cause of suicide is the conviction that not-being-alive is better than being-alive. Suicide by Wartime Enemy is a rather nifty tactic, I suppose!
P.S.: If you're religious and you want to commit suicide without
"going to hell," then you have an easy solution. Just jump off the
roof of a ten story building and, on the way down, pray to God,
repent, and ask God for forgiveness. By the time you go splat, you'll
be forgiven and ready to go to heaven. Easy peasy.
That most likely is precisely what happens 98% of the time. I'd pick a higher building, myself, 'cause gravitational acceleration is WAY quicker than you'd think.
..'though, that would have you spending some SIGNIFICANT amount of "suffering time" in purgatory, according to my theology.
Aloha gangies! <shaka nui!>
[quote="John"][color=blue][size=110][b]** 12-Sep-2019 World View: Suicide rate[/b][/size][/color]
[quote="Tom Mazanec"]
> John, read this article about suicide:
> http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-suicide-rate-in-the-u-s-has-hit-the-highest-level-in-50-years-and-there-is-concern-that-it-will-go-much-higher[/quote]
The suicide issue is a lot more complicated than the "Life is an
absolutely incredible gift" simplistic moralizing approach.
For Generational Dynamics, I've written thousands of articles on
things like war, torture, rape, genocide, ethnic cleansing, poverty,
starvation and suicide. What I've learned is that "Life is absolutely
incredibly worthless." And life is particularly absolutely incredibly
worthless for old people, who are worth less than garbage.
Here's a quote that captures the concept:
[quote="Man of La Mancha"]
> "'Life as it is.' I have lived for over forty years
> and I've seen 'life as it is'. Pain. Misery.
> Cruelty beyond belief. I've heard all the voices of
> God's noblest creature -- moans from bundles of filth
> in the street. I've been a soldier and a slave. I've
> seen my comrades fall in battle or die more slowly
> under the lash in Africa. I've held them at the last
> moment. These were men who saw 'life as it is,' but
> they died despairing.
> No glory. No bray of last words. Only their eyes,
> filled with confusion, questioning, 'Why?'
> I do not think they were asking why they were dying,
> but why they had ever lived.
> When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where
> madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness.
> To surrender dreams, this may be madness. To seek
> treasure where there is only trash. Too much sanity
> may be madness. [b][i]But maddest of all -- to see life as
> it is, and not as it should be![/i][/b]" [/quote][/quote]
All animals (and in fact all negentropic entities) "know" inherently, within their very being, that their existence is a part of a "game",.. that they are committed to "play" only as long as they want to play.
But, as the last line of the above suggests, while one chooses to remain in the game, the game should be seen for what it "should be", and not exclusively as what it actually is, because that IS the "maddest" thing (choice) of all,.. where "madness" means "angry infliction of unnecessary suffering" to, in this case, oneself.
[quote]
For every species of animal, the population grows faster than the
food supply. The same is true for humans.
If the population grows faster than the food supply, as it does for
every animal species, then there have to be ways to get rid of people
-- through war, disease, famine, genocide, ethnic cleansing, suicide.
One can prove mathematically that these things must occur.
[b][u]If you believe that God created the world, then it's God's fault that
war, disease, famine, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and suicide occur.
If God didn't want these things to occur, then he should have created
a world where the population and the food supply grow at the same
rate. But they don't, and that's God's fault.[/u][/b][/quote]
My theology informs me that the world was created as a "perfect thing" (organism or machine), and that it was "later" made imperfect, or rather "later noticed to be imperfect", by and for "man" ("man" being whatever "planetary apex lifeform" existed at any particular time).
But why would "we" do that?
Because "we" were bored, and life can not abide boredom.
God gives us precisely what we need, when we "state" what we want.
The question that occurred to "us" to "solve" our boredom was: Are we more than this?
..and thus began the game, with it's rules and side-effects, that would most precisely give us what we need. Thus before and after, here and there, and more and less were "allowed".
One either believes that we are moving toward "more than this", or not.
To not believe that is the madness that allows the infliction of unnecessary suffering, and the unnecessary relief of necessary suffering.
[quote]
The need for war, genocide and suicide becomes more and more apparent
during decades of peace, as each decade passes, there is less food per
person than the previous decade. Everything falls into place during
generational crisis wars, where this imbalance is fixed.
If you believe that God created the world, then you can see all of
God's tools come into place to fix the problem that he created -- war,
disease, famine, genocide, ethnic cleansing, suicide are all the
"absolutely incredible gifts" that God provided as tools to kill
enough worthless people so that the rest of the worthless people have
enough to eat. God makes sure that, sooner or later, every nation
throws out its garbage.[/quote]
Tools are used by those who need tools. God has no need of tools.
We use tools. We use them freely by choice.
Disease is a rather special case, as it and storms (and the like) are not human directed (excepting bio-warfare),.. but the use of human created "useful" tools is not God's fault.
But once a human created system has "ground itself up" sufficiently, it WILL indeed be "cleansed" in one way or another.
[quote]
Everybody's heard of the "Baby Boom" that followed World War II.
But few people mention the "Baby Bust" that precedes a generational
crisis war. We're seeing it today as young people postpone
marriage and children, and the suicide rate has been going up
for almost 20 years.
There's less food per person today than there was in the 1990s, and
that translates into poverty, and so in America we're seeing more
suicides by people who can't pay for groceries, and also more suicides
by teenagers who love their parents enough to want to spare them the
enormous costs of raising children. If you or your parents can't
pay for groceries, then killing yourself is perfectly reasonable.[/quote]
https://ourworldindata.org/food-per-person
Not sure where your data is (are?) coming from, but I won't quibble. :)
But, I can certainly respect someone who is so thoroughly convinced that they are more worthy as a dead person than as a living person that they go all the way to eliminating themselves from "the game".
THAT is a true believer!
[quote]
... Here's one nugget from the article that I found particularly
interesting: "The suicide rate remained higher than normal throughout
the remainder of the Great Depression and was then drastically reduced
when World War II began in Europe."
I interpret this to mean that when someone who can't afford to buy
groceries might commit suicide during times of peace, but might join
the army during times of war. That way, you become a hero rather than
a coward.
People who commit suicide are viewed by other people as cowards,
heroes or martyrs. If you're going to commit suicide, then you might
commit suicide by joining the army so you can be a hero. Or you might
commit suicide in the name of the Pope, so that you'll be a martyr and
-- who knows? You might even be rewarded for committing suicide by
becoming a Saint.
After all: Like war, committing suicide is God's Will.[/quote]
Suicide, by definition, is the will of the person doing it.
Some choose to believe that everything that occurs happened BECAUSE God willed it. That is not the case in my theology.
We are not puppets. :)
The cause of suicide is the conviction that not-being-alive is better than being-alive. Suicide by Wartime Enemy is a rather nifty tactic, I suppose!
[quote]
P.S.: If you're religious and you want to commit suicide without
"going to hell," then you have an easy solution. Just jump off the
roof of a ten story building and, on the way down, pray to God,
repent, and ask God for forgiveness. By the time you go splat, you'll
be forgiven and ready to go to heaven. Easy peasy.[/quote]
That most likely is precisely what happens 98% of the time. I'd pick a higher building, myself, 'cause gravitational acceleration is WAY quicker than you'd think.
..'though, that would have you spending some SIGNIFICANT amount of "suffering time" in purgatory, according to my theology. :)
Aloha gangies! <shaka nui!>